another what knife (maker) should I buy?

Just starting to read into the world of japanese knives. I'm shopping for something to replace a handmedown basic kitchen knife.

I grew up in a family chinese restaurant, doing prep and cooking, so I would like to think I'm at least proficient.


A couple quirks to my search:

I'm a bit of a nerd, Something about ordering a custom knife made just for me by a nth generation sword/bladesmith makes my inner nerd child squeal in delight.

I'll most likely be going to Japan next spring, so it may be possible to go to the maker's shop to pick up in person... which would make it that much cooler to have a story of picking up a personally forged knife of an nth generation bladesmith. I may be narrowing my search to those makers who could accommodate my nerdiness.



LOCATION
What country are you in?
Canada


KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?

I'm looking for a chef's knife, Already thinking a santoku or gyuto is appropriate for general use.

Are you right or left handed?

right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?

either is fine, I'm probably not going to be picky about it. I have no experience with the japanese handle, only western.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?

blade length I currenly have is 210mm, I've handled slightly longer, though it's been a while.

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)

No


What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?

If I'm picking up in japan I think there might be a bit more room, I'd like to say 400$ shipped. Though if something with good value to price comes in a lower ratio, I'm not opposed either. I'm also not opposed if something calls to me at a higher price as long as it's justifiable.


KNIFE USE

Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?

home, pseudofoodie

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)

generic home kitchen tasking, no bone breaking, but possibly splitting of joints like wing splitting, meat slicing and trimming. slicing, mincing chopping veg.

What knife, if any, are you replacing?

Some generic department store stainless chef knife of around 210mm blade.

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)

mainly pinch, some point depending on the cut needed.

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)

I use all listed depending on what I'm doing at the time.


What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?

I have a feeling the more it looks like a cool looking knife made by a swordsmith the more I'm going to like it lol. Although I'm just as happy with a plain blade as I am with a carved/designer one.

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?

It's been a long time since the 8-10 hour days in the kitchen, so characteristics reducing tiredness is not going to be a huge factor, but I'm not looking for a boat anchor either. The knife being replaced had a cheap plastic handle, something that is naturally antibacterial or reduces the likelihood of trapping bacteria would be great.

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?

Would love to pull it out of the box and go with it, I think anything I get will outperform the stainless blade I currently use.

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?

The longer the edge stays maintenance free the happier I'll be, but I'm not a stranger to the sharpening stone.

I think anything that doesn't come from sears will be better than what I have. I'm open to suggestions.



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)

I like wood cutting boards. Our current one has a synthetic side to it. I'm not adverse to buying a nice board to suit a nice knife.


Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)

yes, though only experienced with stainless knives.

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

Always willing to learn new things

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)

Proper tools are required for proper maintenance.

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

I have collected a few names already, though I'm open to more suggestions:

Mizuno Tanrenjo
Konosuke-sakai


Shinichi Watanabe - this one I would have to have shipped, niigata is not on my travel itinerary


As I mentioned before, I'll be in japan in the spring, Osaka/kansai region and tokyo, maybe a couple other places depending on where my travel companions want to go. If I can arrange to visit the maker I'm purchasing the knife from, I would like to ultimately do that if at all possible. The lineage of the smith is also of some interest to me as well, the longer it can be drawn back, the more interesting it is to me. It sounds weird but it's not going to be a kitchen utensil for me, but also a cultural momento.


Also I will have some questions on the care of carbon steel blades which might be cladded in iron etc, proper care for not stainless blades... I'll poke around elsewhere in threads to see if I can find the info first, but I may end up asking some questions that have probably been answered many times before in many other threads.

Hide says "Visiting workshop is available upon customer's request" and he is located at Osaka.
http://www.handmadeknifejapan.com/location/

moving from your current knife (probably a German profile) to a gyuto profile will take some getting used too...

If you know someone in your area who owns a Japanese knife (shun's don't count), it might be a good idea to ask to borrow it for a while just see if the geometry is comfortable for you..

also there is some variance in geometry between the different Japanese brands.

The fact that you will be visiting Osaka and Tokyo is a big advantage, i believe it is best that you simply visit as many shops as you can there, and feel first hand as many knives as possible, if you will be staying in backpackers or private residences, you might also be able to play around (cook) with some different type knives.

since your current knife is a generic supermarket knife, i am guessing you have no sharpening gear, so it would be wise to save some of the budget for that.
unless there is a good sharpening service in your vicinity, you will probably have to do some level of sharpening by yourself.
it is not rocket science, and with some practice you can decent results.

I have an additional advantage. There is a knifewear shop (http://shop.knifewear.com/) in my vicinity, so I have an opportunity to palm pretty much the higher end entire lineups from a number of makers. It would feel a bit unfair if I were to go in and try but not buy from them.

I'd like for my budget to account for some sharpening gear, there's always room to move on it, especially on something that will last.

I do have a stone, but probably not the correct grit to deal with a nicer blade.

citizenY said:

moving from your current knife (probably a German profile) to a gyuto profile will take some getting used too...

If you know someone in your area who owns a Japanese knife (shun's don't count), it might be a good idea to ask to borrow it for a while just see if the geometry is comfortable for you..

also there is some variance in geometry between the different Japanese brands.

The fact that you will be visiting Osaka and Tokyo is a big advantage, i believe it is best that you simply visit as many shops as you can there, and feel first hand as many knives as possible, if you will be staying in backpackers or private residences, you might also be able to play around (cook) with some different type knives.

since your current knife is a generic supermarket knife, i am guessing you have no sharpening gear, so it would be wise to save some of the budget for that.
unless there is a good sharpening service in your vicinity, you will probably have to do some level of sharpening by yourself.
it is not rocket science, and with some practice you can decent results.

Click to expand...

Marcelo Amaral said:

Hide says "Visiting workshop is available upon customer's request" and he is located at Osaka.
http://www.handmadeknifejapan.com/location/

Click to expand...

Just wanted to clarify here... the owners of handmadeknifejapan.com are not actually the Hide craftsmen. They are a retail company, kind of like us. There are a few of us in the "Hide family", and we all have regions that we are responsible for (for example, we are responsible for north america). Anyways, the point i am making is that Hide-san and Shin-san (his son) actually publicly state that because they are actually working there, in a very small space, visitors must make appointments before coming to visit (of course, depending on their schedule availability). Because they also travel to restaurants for work rather often, they arent always even around at the workshop. We've actually set up visits for customers before.

Anyways, it seemed many people have come to think that handmadeknifejapan.com is actually the craftsmen, but it is not. The guys that run it are pretty nice... i met one of them last time i was in Japan. I think they are based in Kobe.

lurkingknight said:

I have an additional advantage. There is a knifewear shop (http://shop.knifewear.com/) in my vicinity, so I have an opportunity to palm pretty much the higher end entire lineups from a number of makers. It would feel a bit unfair if I were to go in and try but not buy from them.

Click to expand...

Maybe it would be worthwhile to start out with something more entry level so that you would have some more experience on which to base your final decision. You are fortunate to be close to Knifewear so you could handle some knives, ask some questions, and then have some time with a knife to start to figure out characteristics you like or don't.

Without knowing which characteristics are important to YOU, it's going to be hard to know which things are recommenders' preferences vs. yours.

For that kind of money, you should be able to find a knife you love.

And if you take good care of your starter knife, you should be able to sell it and recover a good chunk of your initial investment.

Todd makes a great point. If I went with the first expensive thing I thought I really wanted after becoming semi-educated on knives, I would have a really cool-looking yet crappy knife.
Go to Knifewear, check some stuff out firsthand.

just got back from the shop actually. I handled a few santokus and gyutos I think either would suit me just fine. Quite honestly, I didn't even feel much of a difference in the grip to formulate whether I would prefer western or japanese. Both styles of blades fit very well in my hand and felt quite natural. The konosuke bladess were so so thin I would be terrified to hit it the wrong way and chip it. A custom ordered one that is slightly thicker isn't out of the question, but for that kind of money then we're getting into a much broader range. The sakura knife was a dream in my hand though, but realistically as pretty as it is, is not what I need.

I tried a couple more that aren't listed on their website the fujimoto nashiji line which is half the price of the konosuke mirror and sakura line and they were also thicker. It was a little heavier in hand listed specs as aogami #1 SS 61:62. At 200$ I may just take the plunge and try it for a couple months and if I decide I want more I might gift it to my parents.

Yeah, gifting is another option.

Or you could start with a shorter one or a santoku that might serve as a nice complement to a nicer (and presumably longer) one you get down the road. And it won't be long before someone points out that a gyuto is more versatile, and therefore a superior all-around knife than a santoku. That's not necessarily universal here, but I think it's the more commonly held belief.

I wonder how many of us started out thinking, "I just need ONE, REALLY GOOD gyuto."

I'm up to five now. And, on this forum, that's hardly extreme.

lol, I doubt I'll go into it that deeply. I like cooking, I don't love it. I think in our restaurant kitchen we had a petty, a couple chef blades and an assortment of cleavers. I've gone 15 years since those days just on a petty and a chef without much need for much more in everything I do, so I think a gyuto or santoku will fit 80% of my need and anything I get will be an upgrade. The only issue with a santoku is that most of them seem to be around the 170mm mark, where I'm more used to a 200-210.

The only concern I have is the thinness of the blades, since chinese style cooking that I grew up with usually tries to makes one knife do everything, including things like the flat of the blade to crush garlic. I don't think I'll be doing that anymore depending on which one I get.

However, in the meantime, if anyone has any more suggestions on any more makes where I could possibly do a personal pick up from the maker, I'd be appreciative.

However, in the meantime, if anyone has any more suggestions on any more makes where I could possibly do a personal pick up from the maker, I'd be appreciative.

Click to expand...

I believe knifewear is in Alberta and perhaps one store in BC?. AFAIK there is no more Japanese specialized stores there However a custom knife maker Pierre Rodrigue (one of the vendors here) is located in Alberta. You might want give him a shot.

Other brick and mortar stores I am aware of Tosho and Knife are located in Toronto.
In case you are planing to cross the border to Seattle area, Epicurian Edge is right there. You also get a discount for being a KKF member.

Pierre is up in Loyd which is 6 hr drive from Calgary (which I assume where Op is located), that being said he is the closest maker. Tho Carter and Kramer are both in Oregon, Bill Burke is in Idaho, their offerings might be over the budget.

Not much selection other then knifewear in Calgary unless your in to Shuns or Miyabi's. If your actually in cowtown, your welcome to check out the gyutos in my measly collection.

If you feel that your in to heavier knives check out this tread, http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...eavier-gyuto-Heiji-SS-or-Kato?highlight=heavy

this is of course very individual, but i doubt you will find a santuko to be a good all-rounder knife for your kitchen.
i personally own one and don't even know were it is these days (nothing fancy), since i go for my gyuto for almost everything.

santuko would usually have almost no belly, and for me, that makes them not very comfortable for slicing and rocking motion cutting.
they are, however, great for learning to sharpen by hand since the blade is very strait.(right before my santuko retired, it was used mostly for that).

if you are looking for one knife that will server you well, i would recommend a gyuto, the geometry of these knives is really great in my eyes, and it really feels like someone designed them to be versatile.

BTW, i don't how hard carbon steel gyutos will do, but i use my stainless gyuto (58~59 hrc), for crushing garlic teeth all the time, its not as massive as my other chef knife, but it gets the job done, and certainly does not feel like it is to delicate for the job.

As for the opting for carbon steel, if you are experienced with such steel from your restaurant days then you are probably more of an expert than me.
but if not, mind you, that the term "stainless" is used very loosely in Japanese knives, a 20 minute sit on the board without being wiped will get my "stainless" gyuto develop quite a bit of hard stains that can only be removed with fine abrasives, would not even want to think what would happen if it was a carbon steel.

many people think that a home kitchen is a more relaxed environment that make it easier to keep good knife maintenance habits, truth is , that if you have any toddlers around the house your kitchen could be much more hectic then the one of a crowded restaurant.
it would really hurt to see a 300$ knife get covered in rust.

I'm in ottawa, the knifewear here had a pretty decent selection of makers, but I was hoping to do a custom order from a specific maker and pick up in japan during my trip there next spring.

Ruso said:

I believe knifewear is in Alberta and perhaps one store in BC?. AFAIK there is no more Japanese specialized stores there However a custom knife maker Pierre Rodrigue (one of the vendors here) is located in Alberta. You might want give him a shot.

Other brick and mortar stores I am aware of Tosho and Knife are located in Toronto.
In case you are planing to cross the border to Seattle area, Epicurian Edge is right there. You also get a discount for being a KKF member.

Click to expand...

I did feel that the santoku might be the lesser general use of the 2, it felt a lot more like a vegetable slicer and chopper with its flatness where the gyuto could be used more as a meat carver from the sharper tip, while still slicing well and, as you mentioned, rocking.

citizenY said:

this is of course very individual, but i doubt you will find a santuko to be a good all-rounder knife for your kitchen.
i personally own one and don't even know were it is these days (nothing fancy), since i go for my gyuto for almost everything.

santuko would usually have almost no belly, and for me, that makes them not very comfortable for slicing and rocking motion cutting.
they are, however, great for learning to sharpen by hand since the blade is very strait.(right before my santuko retired, it was used mostly for that).

if you are looking for one knife that will server you well, i would recommend a gyuto, the geometry of these knives is really great in my eyes, and it really feels like someone designed them to be versatile.

BTW, i don't how hard carbon steel gyutos will do, but i use my stainless gyuto (58~59 hrc), for crushing garlic teeth all the time, its not as massive as my other chef knife, but it gets the job done, and certainly does not feel like it is to delicate for the job.

As for the opting for carbon steel, if you are experienced with such steel from your restaurant days then you are probably more of an expert than me.
but if not, mind you, that the term "stainless" is used very loosely in Japanese knives, a 20 minute sit on the board without being wiped will get my "stainless" gyuto develop quite a bit of hard stains that can only be removed with fine abrasives, would not even want to think what would happen if it was a carbon steel.

many people think that a home kitchen is a more relaxed environment that make it easier to keep good knife maintenance habits, truth is , that if you have any toddlers around the house your kitchen could be much more hectic then the one of a crowded restaurant.
it would really hurt to see a 300$ knife get covered in rust.

Click to expand...

If find something you like at knifewear, you can try commissioning a knife though knifewear and pick up from the maker in Japan.

not sure if regular joe employee could set that up, don't know who I should talk at KW to for that. For the moment I sent an email to konosuke to see if they have time to do something for me. So far though I think my best options really are the 3 that I listed, 2 in sakai and watanabe in niigata, and that one would be a ship to me deal. But that doesn't necessarily mean I won't stop by mizuno tanrenjo on an afternoon if that's how it plays out.

I also contacted the agent for mizuno tanrenjo about doing something custom and they said I should just drop by to visit them. Their agent is based in seki/gifu and the majority of the makers they represent are from gifu. I'm not sure how mizuno tanrenjo are to deal with through email, they do have a limited english site and contact form but the site is rather outdated and seems a bit neglected. I'll wait for an answer from konosuke before I try to communicate with them.

Some of the blue steel blades from konosuke are starting to catch my eye and I don't think knifewear carries that line.

oh and KW's masakage line is also starting to draw my attention, but I can't find any them as my ability to search in japanese is pretty crappy when it comes to kanji. As far as I can tell masakage is a company of several smiths as is konosuke.

lurkingknight said:

oh and KW's masakage line is also starting to draw my attention, but I can't find any them as my ability to search in japanese is pretty crappy when it comes to kanji. As far as I can tell masakage is a company of several smiths as is konosuke.

Click to expand...

Indeed they are, I like Katsushige Anyru's offerings, makes the Yuki and I think Mizu? he also started his own line

Suggestion I always make, Masamoto KS. :biggrin:

I think I'm going to hit up knifewear for a petty as an appetizer. I sometimes have a need for a small knife, so I think one of the cladded masakages will fit really well. Something under 150$ hopefully. Although they do have a cladded blue steel entry line not on their website for a really good price. I'll have to go in again this weekend to compare the masakage yuki and koishi vs the fujimoto nashiji pettys in 120ish mm. They're all around 150-200, white vs blue and blue all 3 are cladded.

I love the finish on mizu it looks like wet rock but it's not cladded so I'm a bit concerned with care on it.

lurkingknight said:

I think I'm going to hit up knifewear for a petty as an appetizer. I sometimes have a need for a small knife, so I think one of the cladded masakages will fit really well. Something under 150$ hopefully. Although they do have a cladded blue steel entry line not on their website for a really good price. I'll have to go in again this weekend to compare the masakage yuki and koishi vs the fujimoto nashiji pettys in 120ish mm. They're all around 150-200, white vs blue and blue all 3 are cladded.

I love the finish on mizu it looks like wet rock but it's not cladded so I'm a bit concerned with care on it.

Click to expand...

hmm I am wondering about these fujimoto's

Here's a question...

Between:

pure carbon steel
carbon steel clad in soft iron

which one is better? The iron concerns me as I'm not sure there would be a benefit to having it unclad and just a solid piece of carbon steel, if they both rust, what's the advantage? does carbon steel rust faster than iron?

I prefer unclad my self, I don't like the feeling of soft cladding on the stones.

went with the watanabe kurouchi 210 gyuto. 6 week wait. 25000y, think that's the old price still.

Won't be picking it up, but as I have looked into the kansai tourism board... mizuno terenjo is open to the public as a museum as much as it is a workshop. They will show visitors around the forge for free. But who knows, maybe the svelte shape of a tsukihiji or yanagiba will seduce me into picking one up while I'm there.