Vintage Japanese Knives

I am a home chef and Sommelier. I purchased some Vintage Japanes knives at an auction honestly because I thought they were very cool and needed a home that would take care of them. I am honesty trying to figure out what I have. I am posting picture of a Chef knife and another thinner knife. This is the condition I bought them in. Here are my questions.
1. What is the origin, maker, time, or any other info about the knives themselves?
2. How can i make it to where I can use them. They tend to rust if i use them on anything acidic. I oil before and after and do not use soap on them but how can I make them user friendly. Especially the Chef knife as it is in fairly ruff shape and honestly not very usable at all.

Thanks for any help you can provide. I honestly have very little in them but would like to be able to use them.

I was going to post pics but I cant figure it out. Can someone explain how to post pics?

Easiest is to post a link to a pic at a image hosting service. Dropbox, imjur(sp?), and a host of others. If its a slow nite someone may even post the picture you've linked to.

It's my understanding that theres a difference in posting privileges between "supporting members" and "members". Anyone should be able to use the insert image button above and post a pic from their computer or hosting service. Use the preview button - if you can't see the pic in the preview - no one else can either. The "support" subforum provides additional details.

And welcome.

I'm a home Doctor and Mixed Martial Artist. lol

Here is a link to the pics.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/udjzej5dx1rkne9/AACmwRHyWfKbna9BzxcSEdIza?dl=0

This should do it.

Wow...they are kinda rough. You might want to consider using them as decorative items and starting fresh with some new stuff. Very cool though.

Those can be fixed if you know what your doing. Will take done time if all you have is whetstones and no machines. You can order new handles and re handle then quite easy, but would have to see how bad the tangs are rusted. If the tangs are really rusted and basically broken in pieces they can not be re handled without welding on new tangs.

I can read the kanji if you'd like?

The first knife I think says
越前 信手打(echizen shin teuchi)
So I'd guess http://www.echizenuchihamono.com/category/knife.html

The name 中村 (nakamura) is stamped on the handle.

Having trouble with the nakiri or whatever that is. Will get back to you on those kanji

osakajoe said:

I can read the kanji if you'd like?

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Yes please. Also if someone can jump in with history it would be great; I am just curious.

rami_m said:

Yes please. Also if someone can jump in with history it would be great; I am just curious.

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Just look at my above post edited it

BTW, the one knife appears to be a deba, not a chefs knife. The other one is probably an usuba. They are both in wicked bad shape though, definitely worth cleaning up but I probably wouldn't use them. They would make great display/conversation pieces.

If it's a deba then it's a lefty. They don't engrave on the back side unless it's small located on the iron not carbon steel. I was thinking a Ryo deba, double bevel deba. The other knife is a chuka bocho. A Chinese "cleaver" all purpose knife. You can tell by the small squarish handle it has

The deba is right handed not left. The writing is on the opposite side that is sharpened.
The Usuba or Chuka is not really a cleaver. Much lighter then the deba. Also it is sharpened on the end and not flat. It is sharpened on both sides so is it a Nikiri?

Any ideas on age or any value? actually the knives are quite comfortable, good, wight, and amazingly sharp. I am interesting in the process of cleaning them to make them usable and not worried about changing the handles. The Usuna or Nikiri, whatever it is , will start to rust lightly when cutting acidic vegetables but that is what it is designed for. How do I stop that?

The nakiri will always do that since it's carbon steel. You should wash it quickly after cutting acidic ingredients. It really needs to have the edge flattened if you're going to use it. An experienced person could get them back into shape but I wouldn't recommend a first-timer to try and repair them.

If you truly want to use these, I would consider it extremely important to remove/replace the handles. With as bad as the damage is to the surface of that deba, I can assure you it is waaaaaaay worse underneath the handle. You risk losing the tang to rust and corrosion, not to mention the nasty factor. Debas are fish prep knives afterall.....

I replaced a handle on an old deba for this cook last year. When I busted off the handle I was shocked to have all these baby cockroaches crawling all over my station. Made a note to stay away from his restaurant. And make sure to fill in any holes around the tang with glue, epoxy, or bond after replacing the handles

osakajoe said:

I replaced a handle on an old deba for this cook last year. When I busted off the handle I was shocked to have all these baby cockroaches crawling all over my station. Made a note to stay away from his restaurant. And make sure to fill in any holes around the tang with glue, epoxy, or bond after replacing the handles

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That is disgusting. Are these knives particularly old? Or just neglected?

To be honest you guys are making way more out of the handles then I care to get into. Really more interested in the knives themselves. Who made them? How old they are? How to get the blades in better condition to use? Is there a value in these knives?

These knives are made of carbon steel. They are not stainless and will react/discolor/eventually rust if not wiped down during use. That is just how it is, especially with carbon. It doesn't matter what you think the knife was designed for. Cleanliness is revered in Japanese kitchens and you will not find many knives with patina on them, especially in a pro environment.

I believe Osaka Joe answered your question as to the Kanji, sometimes it can be very vague. There are not too many Traditional Japanese knife historians out there. Use your Goggle-Fu to figure out the rest.

My concern is not with the handles themselves, but the steel that goes into the handle(tang). When the tang rusts off, what are you going to hold the knife by?

I would not recommend trying to refurb these yourself. Maybe try Jon @ JKI (a vendor here) he's the only person I know that might take it on.

I don't think these knives are very valuable based on their current condition and really bad sharpening/wear and tear over the years. If/when these things get cleaned up or even just put to a respectable working order, they will be but a fraction of what they are supposed to be.

Send it to Dave. That'll learn him.

my thoughts coming from someone that has restored hundreds of straight razors, obviously not a knife but still carbon steel with similar problems from neglect. You can restore these knives but not in the sense of a "historical" restore in that the geometry, etc is going to change. I used to remove quite a bit more pitting and damage from old full wedge straight razors. If you have a ton of time on your hand (and dont mind the pain) you can sand these down using high grit wet/dry sandpaper until you end up with smooth/fresh metal and then work on a progression thru higher and higher grit until you eventually end up a very nice finish. better yet is to use low rpm buffing wheels and compounds but that is a big upfront cost and not practical (but it is the best way). you would also need to remove those old handles and put new ones on. what you are basically doing is using the knives as a blank and basically creating a new knife. if thats your cup of tea then go for it, but would be a lot easier to just get new knives if you want something you can use.

obviously the advice noted above assumes that when you remove the handle there is not extensive corrosion to the tang. if so, toss them, that cant be fixed.


my two cents.

EDIT - i would only attempt the work on the first one you posted, the second one with the frown edge (opposite of smile edge - maybe this is just a straight razor term but you get the idea) is pretty much a gonner. it would take a very very long time to remove enough steel to get a good edge.

rami_m said:

That is disgusting. Are these knives particularly old? Or just neglected?

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Old and used all the time cutting fish so always in water. Most Japanese knife makers do a poor job or don't fill in the open area around the tang and handle with bond or glue. This leads to pieces of food and water getting lodged in your handle. Eventually your tang will rust badly and become occupied by nasty little things.

As everyone has stated of the handle is rusted through your knife is pretty much worthless. I've restored many knives like this and if you don't know what your doing expect to take a long time doing so. My opinion on their value, assuming the tangs are fine, is however much you paid for them. The knives don't indicate what steel is in them and does not indicate WHO made them. Just regular name branded old knives