Seeking to understand Shigefusa finish variations

Kitchen Knife Forums

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

drawman623

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
240
Reaction score
4
Seeing the visual contrast between black Kurouichi finish and damascus Kitaeji or smooth Kasumi is obvious. What is unclear to me are the performance differences inherent to these finishes or styles of forging. Is it the folding process and labor intensive polishing of the damascus cladding that drives the higher price? I've read that the hagane among all 3 is the same steel. I presume the geometry is also similar. I'm intent to make a purchase but want some idea of what I would gain or give up in choosing one over another beyond the obvious aesthetics.

Please note I'm not asking which would be best for me, just some objective contrast between them from those with some experience. Thanks for sharing any comments

Comparison based upon any of these categories or another of your choosing would help me understand.
Cutting
Wedging
Patina (resistence or suceptability)
Sharpening (ease or edge retention)
Smell (reactivity)
Comfort (especially comparing spines and chines)
Durability (home use)
 
Wow over 100 views and no replies. Either this noob is asking the question incorrectly or he is not alone in his confusion.
Is there a shig fan out there with knowledge to share? These beauties seem to move instantly when offered on B/S/T. :scratchhead:
 
Hagane is the same

Kurouchi - cheapest, least labour intensive. Generally only available in smaller blades (petty, nakiri, santoku most common, although Maxim had a 210 gyuto made by Masayuki once, iirc)

Kitaeji is more labour intensive than Kasumi. Shigefusa claims the former is superior (particularly for single bevel knives).

But don't take my word for it:

http://hides-export.blogspot.nl/2011/06/q-with-iizuka-san.html

http://hides-export.blogspot.nl/2011/06/knives-i-recommend-part-1-shigefusa.html

Perhaps Maxim (JNS) will chime in if he sees this.
 
Cheers Tim, thank you for the reply and links.
I find the Kurouchi finish very attractive. I'll start with a medium Nakiri as I look for more information and member insight.
 
My understanding is the grind is not the same between the kurouchi version and the kasumi/kitaeji, but it might be similar enough where it counts (lower half of the blade).
 
I'm one of the viewers that's also curious about the differences
 
This is some info I was sent by an Australian retailer who sometimes carries Shigefusa's, it's an interesting read


Shigefusa decided to leave the famous Iwasaki razor upon Iwasaki-san's suggestion to introduce to the users (mainly the pro chefs back then) that there is a much superior option to Honyaki for Yanagi knives, which is the Kitaeji.

So their Kasumi yanagi is, in fact, not their intended product (that's why they don't go all out on Kasumi model's polishing, and don't engrave the mei either, only stamp, but that's more to keep the price affordable, not trying to slack or anything), but since there are many people who ask for them, they are complying. Until I started selling to the western world, I didn't even know Shigefusa made non-Kitaeji knives! So to me Shigefusa used to mean Kitaeji.

Honyaki was considered to be superior to the Kasumi knives for single bevel thinner knives' construction, because they don't warp (so thick ones like deba, or double bevel don't matter.) Kasumi yanagi, no matter how expensive (even Shigefusa or Heiji), will start to warp (usually after 3 to 5 years of production) due to the tension difference between the hagane and jigane, but as Honyaki is one piece, it doesn't warp.

Altho it is extremely easy to fix this warp (a kindy can fix it...), because all you need to do is manually bend, blade overhanging from the table edge, not too many chefs know this, and some are too scared to do it even if they knew, so there was a demand for non warping yanagis, and hence Honyaki was introduced. (Note to Ivan: Do you play golf at all? If you do, do you know anything about lie angle adjustment of forged irons, which is done by manual bending? Fixing bent yanagi is as easy, well, it’s easier since you don’t need any machine!)

BUT honyakis are expensive, very fragile (if you drop it or bang it against the sink wall when washing, it could snap right in half even! If not, it's tempered too much, so the edge will not be as sharp nor long lasting), and difficult to grind, and cannot be used up all the way to the spine (you can use any knives as petty once the blade length goes shorter than 165mm, all you need to do is get a petty handle and re-attach. If you will use up a Shigefusa, Heiji or Tsukasa knife to such length, I will get the handle in and reform the blade shape to a perfect petty! That would be my honour), so Shigefusa upon his masters' suggestion, i.e. Iwasaki-san and Nagashima-san the sword smith (he is the one who instructed how to forge Tamahagane razors to Iwasaki-san, as well as instructing how to forge Katanas when Iwasaki-san obtained his national license since his father, Dr. Kousuke who was a Katana specialist at Tokyo Uni, has passed by then), he set out to introduce his Kitaeji knives, which doesn't warp.


I've owned a number of shigs, both kasumi & kitaeji.
Fit and finish is always great, the polish on the kitaeji is at a whole other level, the hand engraved kanji on the single bevel kitaejis is a nice touch but doesn't affect performance. All have been very comfortable nicely rounded & polished spine & choils.

As far as cutting performance goes (for Gyuto) I have seen some variation within the same lines, the best performers for my preferences have been a Kitaeji Gyuto, and a western Kasumi. But others preferences may vary.

Wedging I've never had an issue, but really avoiding wedging comes down to maintenance by the owner, shigefusa do have a relatively thick spine, so if not properly thinned & maintained wedging will become a problem.

I have never had a problem with reactivity, and can't say I noticed a big difference between the two lines. Like any iron clad blade, if you wipe consistently you shouldn't have an issue.

Edge retention is pretty similar, kitaeji has slightly better than the Kasumi, it's not the best, but I have pretty high standards for edge retention ( I've been spoiled by makers like Devin, Bill Burke & Marko)
 
Thanks Dave for the contribution. Nobody wants to see too much redundancy in thread topics. I looked back but missed that one.

Thank you Von for the thorough information. I'm intent to buy a kurouchi but still unsure if the spine and chine are rounded like the other Shigefusa offerings. Perhaps Brandon is right that upper grind is different with these lower cost blades. As for the kitaeji vs kasumi comparison, it seems that all sources agree there is a qualitative difference (beyond the aesthetic) to promise an uptic in knife performance with the kitaeji. Hand engraved kanji, superior resistence to crooking, revised geometry and possibly hagane material too. I'm still reading and seeking good information, but I have what I need to say the added expense is not about vanity but the promise of performance and value.

When I feel more competent with the opinions and literature coming from other forum members and I have compared the 3 styles first hand, I'll post something that brings all facts together for the next person in need of better understanding. Thanks all for bringing your experience to light.
 
Thanks Dave for the contribution. Nobody wants to see too much redundancy in thread topics. I looked back but missed that one.

Thank you Von for the thorough information. I'm intent to buy a kurouchi but still unsure if the spine and chine are rounded like the other Shigefusa offerings. Perhaps Brandon is right that upper grind is different with these lower cost blades. As for the kitaeji vs kasumi comparison, it seems that all sources agree there is a qualitative difference (beyond the aesthetic) to promise an uptic in knife performance with the kitaeji. Hand engraved kanji, superior resistence to crooking, revised geometry and possibly hagane material too. I'm still reading and seeking good information, but I have what I need to say the added expense is not about vanity but the promise of performance and value.

When I feel more competent with the opinions and literature coming from other forum members and I have compared the 3 styles first hand, I'll post something that brings all facts together for the next person in need of better understanding. Thanks all for bringing your experience to light.

I owned a single bevel kurouchi petty, and the F/F was every bit as good as on my kasumi gyuto.
 
I owned a single bevel kurouchi petty, and the F/F was every bit as good as on my kasumi gyuto.

My experience matches this--kurouchi santoku and a couple of kasumi gyutos. Would love to try kitaeji, but the kasumi is perfect to me; for the cost of the kitaeji I would just buy another custom.
 
Thanks brainsausage and chinacats. I've ordered 2 Shig Nakiri knives. 1 Kurouchi finish and the other Kitaeji. This will be a fun comparison. I'll post pics and dimensions in an effort to share a close comparison when I have them.
 
Thanks brainsausage and chinacats. I've ordered 2 Shig Nakiri knives. 1 Kurouchi finish and the other Kitaeji. This will be a fun comparison. I'll post pics and dimensions in an effort to share a close comparison when I have them.

Well played sir, well played indeed...
 
Thanks brainsausage and chinacats. I've ordered 2 Shig Nakiri knives. 1 Kurouchi finish and the other Kitaeji. This will be a fun comparison. I'll post pics and dimensions in an effort to share a close comparison when I have them.

Did the same. Only problem is to stop admiring the Kitaeji long enough to actually use it. A real work of art that is mesmerising :)

Congratulations:thumbsup:

Welcome to the world of Shig Kitaeji! Get comfy. You'll be here a while .... Bwahahaha:wink:
 
I got a package this week! Here is some close comparison information between kurouchi and kitaji knives by Shigefusa

DSCN2248.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

Packaging is identical between the knives. In this case, both are nakiri 7"
 
The signatures appear engraved rather than stamped.
Kurouchi
DSCN2352.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
Damascus
DSCN2349.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
 
Both choils are equally ground. They are well rounded. The kurouchi black finish seems sufficiently course to give the blade a less finished feeling. The kitaeji is oh so smooth by comparison. Both knives at the point of the mocha where the knife meets the collar, there is evidence of hand polishing and sealing to keep contaminants out of the handle. The sealer shows clearly against the matte kurouchi finish. Neither knife shows significant difference but the photos will do the talking.

Kurouchi
DSCN2251.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

Kitaeji
DSCN2252.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

Kurouchi
DSCN2253.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

Kitaeji
DSCN2254.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
 
I expected some variation in proportion and thus weight. Hand made processes by their nature do not yield identical results. I didn't expect to see this much variation though. Note the difference in length with the heel sitting further away from the handle on the Kitaeji knife. I found this proportion more conducive to comfortable grip. I cannot say, however, that either length is typical or even deliberate to one style over the other. That is the nature of comparison between single data points...I speak only for these two examples and not for Shigefusa knives overall.

Kurouchi (ounces)
DSCN2361.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

Handles flush to the cutting board
DSCN2365.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

Kitaeji
DSCN2360.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
 
The handles are exact and the fit and finish on the collars is similar. The Kurouchi finish knife has a lightly smoother transition at the collar where the slightest ridge can be felt on the Kitaeji. To note any difference here is nit picking. The bone collars show some nice modeling in their grain. The ho wood is well sanded and the D shape is comfortable. I'll close for now with photos of what I would call similar balance points. Again, the photos may tell you more than I can. Pardon the knife callus

Kurouchi
DSCN2376.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

Kitaeji
DSCN2377.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
 
I cant quit without a closeup of the Damascus surface. The kitaeji is truly beautiful with muted tones of Damascus because they are so well polished.

DSCN2370.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

DSCN2369.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
 
Awesome, hope you will follow up with a performance review.
Cheers
 
Do you have a straight edge that you can lay on the side from edge to spine? I'd like to see if there's any funky geometry stuff (hollows, etc) going on in the hira (flat).
 
Thanks for following the thread folks. There is definitely more to come!

Chinacats, I will put together a thorough review that that will be some time down the road. I don't feel sufficiently accomplished in my knife skills to properly note knife performance subtleties. The same is true of edge retention and sharpening. These reviews will come from me in time...but hopefully not before its time.

XooMG, I will definitely take photos by a straight edge for you. Discussion of geometry is next. Now I'm working the OT to pay for the addiction! Hopefull more to follow tonight.
 
A really excellent thread. Thoughtful and well presented. I have the same Shigs so I'm very interested in your detailed thoughts. Looking forward to future instalments.

Cheers,

J :thumbsup:
 
Back
Top