Which gyuto? (Stainless/resistant, ~240mm, more nfo inside)

Let's go for that questionnaire:

Location: Germany, European Union

I am looking for a gyuto or a chef's knife of similar make, meaning thin, french profile, as the title said around 250mm. Not under 230 and not over 265 please. Western Handle (though I like the handle of Global GF)
I'd like it to be stainless or multi-layered (at least some form of corrosion resistance). Sorry, I have almost no idea about these things

Budget: this is going to be my present to myself. I'd like to spend no more than 165€ though, that should be around 200U$D

I'd use it professionally, I#m looking for something for the finer works here. I have German nives that will take care of any more strenuous tasks, but then again a fair bit of harder use will eventually arise. I don't have the time to maintain a carbon knife at work, so those are out I guess. Pinch grip, push-cutting, slicing. No chopping, I have other knives to take care of that. I want something agile, light and laser-like that is fairly easy to maintain with a good ceramic rod and will stand up to professional work.

The weight and balance should be fairly far back or at least balanced under the first segment of my index my finger when I use the pinch grip. The blade itself: ideally french profile, pointy, spear-like tip and a fairly flat belly (that still has a slight curve though). Especially the latter is something I find missing on many models I found online (almost no vendors here sell non-german knives)...I'll try to illustrate. (please bear with me here, my knowledge on knife anatomy terminology is lacking even in my native language, which isn't english - this might sound rather funny to you all.)


Not that. Not that at all. The upper level drops way too fast at the tip.


No, that ain't it either. Too flat "belly" on that one.


Aww yessss.


As for edge and edge retention: I don't need a razor. I need a very good useable sharpness that can be maintained easily enough while at work. It should stand up to normal workloads, ideally I'd ose a sharpening rod as I do for my german ones. Hell, I have no idea about japanese knives and their maintenance. Spending another wad of cash for a decent (ceramic?) rod (no diamond, I hate to use knives that went over one...like an ultrafine serrated knife and won't hold an edge for ****) is fine by me. I might even learn how to use a waterstone one day but not now. Dunno about the various designs like spyderco sharpmaker, don't know what to make of those. Of course it will never see the inside of a dishwasher or even a sink if I can help it but I can't guarantee that I'll have the time to wash and wipe every time I have used it.

A local dealership with a good rep among my colleagues told me Global lost a lot of their quality over the last few years and "isn't what they used to be" - I'd be grateful if anyone has any info on that one.

I read quite a bit about high-techie stainless steels

The questionnaire asks after cutting boards: plastic of course, It's the bloody law here.

Thanks in advance

you posted a picture of that Hattori...any reason that wouldnt work? seems to match all your criteria?

DaninMD said:

you posted a picture of that Hattori...any reason that wouldnt work? seems to match all your criteria?

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I admit it's beautiful...but the price... hey, it's on discout for 255 USD! Wow, not that much over budget. But what would I have to do as to take care of it? It would be a shame to simply mistreat something like this. Also...bloody hell, it's too much! I'm not nearly good enough to do it justice, this is...too much! ****, I can't work with something like that, it would be like my 90 years old grandmother driving to the baker's with a formula one car.


Good lord, I can't stop googling for more pictures, this is...wow!


This might be the most beautiful kitchen knife I ever saw, but...No, I propably need something like a MAC or a Global, not this!

It's a fair bit over budget.

If you like the Hattori profile but want to spend less coin I'd have a look at Misono's stainless offerings. The Moly is a great value knife that does everything pretty well, the 440 series has the same profile, excellent fit and finish and a slightly harder steel. Both will respond well to a ceramic rod (e.g. MAC black).

Different league to Global, which aren't bad knives but not in the class of these gyutos.

Look Man..... its only 43 euros more if you are saying" aww yesss" it means you like the knife,i would go for it.Its a small price to pay for somthing you really like especialy if you are gonna use it professionally go for it brother you wont regret it .

Look Man..... its only 43 euros more if you are saying" aww yesss" it means you like the knife,i would go for it.Its a small price to pay for somthing you really like especialy if you are gonna use it professionally go for it brother you wont regret it .

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+1

Nihilio said:

I admit it's beautiful...but the price... hey, it's on discout for 255 USD! Wow, not that much over budget. But what would I have to do as to take care of it? It would be a shame to simply mistreat something like this. Also...bloody hell, it's too much! I'm not nearly good enough to do it justice, this is...too much! ****, I can't work with something like that, it would be like my 90 years old grandmother driving to the baker's with a formula one car.

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What about the HD series from Hattori? 240mm is $215

Also, its VG10 steel i believe so much easier to deal with than carbon steel. The HD line is VG10, and i think the other one is too.

Well if this is overbudget new you could always try to snatch one on BST.

****, my coworkers will either not recognize it and grab it to open a carton of milk or they do and think I'm a pretentious prick. :sad0:

I might be better off getting something simple (and yet superior to what I own) along the lines of Tojiro DP or Fujiwara FKM, just to get used to that kind of knife... and to learn to take proper care of it. I feel very much like I don't deserve to use something like this. :beatinghead:

in my experience if the difference between "meh, pretty good" and "awwww, yes" is not too much. go with the one you really want. odds are you will end up getting it anyway. its stainless steel, no special care. just keep that bad boy sharp.

More like a BMW 325 i

DaninMD said:

in my experience if the difference between "meh, pretty good" and "awwww, yes" is not too much. go with the one you really want. odds are you will end up getting it anyway.

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I fear you're right.

DaninMD said:

just keep that bad boy sharp.

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How do I do that? I have no clue about any kind of sharpening beyond honing rods and the guy I trust to give my germans to. What do I need to learn?

Nihilio said:

I fear you're right.

How do I do that? I have no clue about any kind of sharpening beyond honing rods and the guy I trust to give my germans to. What do I need to learn?

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going to need some whetstones, which you are going to need for any japanese knife you buy. a lot of people recommend combo stones, like a King 1k/6k stone. then you need to watch most of these: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEBF55079F53216AB

no honing steel/ceramics for these knives. you can do touch ups on the 6k stone

I have a Hiromoto AS gyuto...love it. carbon core with stainless cladding. sells for $100 less than the Hatori. i love the knife, takes a great edge.

Nihilio said:

****, my coworkers will either not recognize it and grab it to open a carton of milk or they do and think I'm a pretentious prick. :sad0:

I might be better off getting something simple (and yet superior to what I own) along the lines of Tojiro DP or Fujiwara FKM, just to get used to that kind of knife... and to learn to take proper care of it. I feel very much like I don't deserve to use something like this. :beatinghead:

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Yea.... i know where your coming from.. but if you think your coworkers would say such a thing then **** em do what your doing and don't watch what other people say. Oh yea you do deserve to use that knife why should you not.

slash said:

Yea.... i know where your coming from.. but if you think your coworkers would say such a thing then **** em do what your doing and don't watch what other people say. Oh yea you do deserve to use that knife why should you not.

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agreed. besides this isnt a $3k custom knife or anything. its very nice, but not to the pretentious prick level

Ah ****, I forgot: if i'm unlucky enough the customs office will open the package and demand a hefty 19% VAT extra.

DaninMD said:

going to need some whetstones, which you are going to need for any japanese knife you buy. a lot of people recommend combo stones, like a King 1k/6k stone. then you need to watch most of these: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEBF55079F53216AB

no honing steel/ceramics for these knives. you can do touch ups on the 6k stone

I have a Hiromoto AS gyuto...love it. carbon core with stainless cladding. sells for $100 less than the Hatori. i love the knife, takes a great edge.

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Sooo...

knife: 200€
Stone: 60€
VAT: 38€
239€
Double my budget


As much as I love that knife I have never held it in my hand, don't know **** about it beyond that it's the most beautiful piece of steel I ever saw. I do believe this is something to keep in mind for later.


So, back to square one: Stainless, blade geometry as close to the Hattori as can be done, easy maintenance, budget 140€ (need to buy a stone after all). Also now I apparently need to buy a decent combo-stone and learn how to use it. :rofl2:

lets just say the $$ posted on customs is "fuzzy" and leave it at that

Sorry for the ninja-edit. Let me say again:

So, back to square one: Stainless, blade geometry as close to the Hattori as can be done, easy maintenance, budget 140€ (need to buy a stone after all). Also now I apparently need to buy a decent combo-stone and learn how to use it.

Heard good things about Hiromota GS3 (stainless - similar to VG10). $145 for the 240mm gyuto: http://japanesechefsknife.com/Page4.html#GingamiNo.3

profile looks similar. I have the Hiromota AS version (carbon steel clad in SS) and love it. dont notice reactivity since so little of the carbon steel is exposed. $161 for this version and i think worth the small price increase http://japanesechefsknife.com/TenmiJyurakuSeries.html#AogamiSuper

Hiromoto AS gets a lot of recommendations as good first knife and i can see why.

Nihilio said:

Sorry for the ninja-edit. Let me say again:

So, back to square one: Stainless, blade geometry as close to the Hattori as can be done, easy maintenance, budget 140€ (need to buy a stone after all). Also now I apparently need to buy a decent combo-stone and learn how to use it.

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I believe you are incorrectly referring to the shape of the blade along the edge as "geometry"; that is the profile. The " geometry" is the cross-section of the blade.

mhlee said:

I believe you are incorrectly referring to the shape of the blade along the edge as "geometry"; that is the profile. The " geometry" is the cross-section of the blade.

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Oh, right you are. Sorry, english isn't my native language. What I meant was (read up on terminology) the profile of course.

DaninMD said:

Heard good things about Hiromota GS3 (stainless - similar to VG10). $145 for the 240mm gyuto: http://japanesechefsknife.com/Page4.html#GingamiNo.3

profile looks similar. I have the Hiromota AS version (carbon steel clad in SS) and love it. dont notice reactivity since so little of the carbon steel is exposed. $161 for this version and i think worth the small price increase http://japanesechefsknife.com/TenmiJyurakuSeries.html#AogamiSuper

Hiromoto AS gets a lot of recommendations as good first knife and i can see why.

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+1 to this

I use a Hiromoto Ginsanko slicer at work from time to time and find that it takes a nice toothy edge and is plenty tough. Got a 240mm gyuto for a co-worker to use recently who has been happy with it too. I am yet to see any chipping issues on either blade. I personally keep mine touched up on a naniwa 2k superstone...I don't give my knives to anyone else to sharpen

I believe these knives are no longer being made anymore too, so whatever JCK has in stock now is all that's left.

A review of Hiromoto G3

http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/ktknv/hiromoto/hiromoto240gyuto.shtml

I wouldn't compare it to VG-10, I got the impression on the stones it's much finer grained.

Just don't buy esp. working situation using inferior knives who cares what other's think. Some very good knives are plane janes that work well. The Akifusa with SRS-15 steel which has good durable edge , and easy to sharpen. The powder steel is high quality & gets very sharp.

There are a lot of good reasons to learn to sharpen your own knives. One is that your blade gets trained to your sharpening style making touch ups easier. If someone else sharpens your blades you don't know what angles are being put on.

So...I had a sort of revelation at work today. A colleague lent me his treasured Global GF-34 (he was stuck on fish prep all night, delivery ****** up) and it was a blast, an absolute beast. I never had worked with a 11" before, but this thing...nimble, accurate, fast and precise, feeling like a solid extension of my arm. He uses a microfeinzug steel to keep the edge up and a stone at home (so he told me) and rambled on about the softer metal of Globals (well...compared to other japanese knives that is) making them truly durable enough for work. I just loved the global-handle, don't know why. It's 160€ here, which is 200U$D.

I read that normal steels supposedly destroy global knives - is that true? His seemed to work just fine and I can't see why it shouldn't.

To understand the Globals you
should see them in their context.
They were the first Japanese knives meant for a Western general public used to very soft heavy German blades. In the time of their introduction, mid 80's, the Globals were revolutionary in the eyes of that same general public because of their low weight, sharpness out of the box, flat profile, good geometry. Please note their in our eyes soft steel is very forgiving:
people hadn't to change their poor habits too much. Add to that the easy availability and appealing design and you understand the commercial success.
It has never been a knife for the
little few.
Since their introduction, a lot of
much better knives have become
available to a broather public as
well. So, the Globals have become
largely outdated, but were an
introduction to better knives for a
lot of people. Still, Globals are IMHO much better knives than their Germans counterparts.
Personally, I don't like their steel -- sharpening them is not exactly very funny, and I'm not enchanted by their design. A few of their knives are -- within their limits --great performers, though. I have
especially the G2 and GS5 in mind.
About steeling Globals: yes, it should be possible, but steeling will always cause early fatigue of the steel, that will have to got abraded at the next sharpening session. So, steeling will -- in an indirect way -- cause heavy early wearing.
If not done very well steeling this stainless steel is likely to create a wire edge -- made of accumulated debris settled on top of the edge. A wire edge will give a short moment of extreme sharpness -- til it collapses, then causing a long time of extreme dullness, til it has been removed by competent sharpening. With Globals as with a lot of others better maintenance can be achieved by a few very light edge trailing strokes on a fine stone.

Hum...I really, really like those handles though. And let's be honest: I don't actually want some high-end knives but solid stuff to work long hours with. Forgiving sounds rather good. Something that can be easily maintained, without investing all that much time and money, that will just work.

Edit:

the 11 inch were fun though. :knight:

Nihilio said:

Hum...I really, really like those handles though. And let's be honest: I don't actually want some high-end knives but solid stuff to work long hours with. Forgiving sounds rather good. Something that can be easily maintained, without investing all that much time and money, that will just work.

Edit:

the 11 inch were fun though. :knight:

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Sorry, cant edit again... What do you say to Fujiwara FKM? [video=youtube;a3JV5xDeYZ0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3JV5xDeYZ0[/video] Easy to sharpen, good edge, together with a stone well in budget. What'ya think?

The Globals are far from inexpensive, the Dickoron Mikrofeinzug is neither, and you will need anyway two stones. You don't want to start your sharpening on Globals -- it's not simple and I do know them very well. And sharpening they will need: edge retention is mediocre, and they start only to perform after good thinning and getting rid of the convex factory edge. Perhaps sending them directly to a good sharpener is an idea.
Knives that have been proposed here are in no way a high-end ones and less expensive than the Global. Their maintenance is a bit simpler than with the Globals due to the better edge retention.
If you like the Global handle, that's fine for you. See if you can work an entire shift with it.
It's entirely up to you, it's your work, your tool and you money. But there are no miracle solutions. Please be aware that your colleague's enthusiasm is perhaps founded in some auto-justification, and not so much in great knowledge and experience. The remark a softer steel would more truly durable (?!?) -- whatever that may mean -- is an indication.

The Fujiwaras are good entry knives. Factory edge from the ones I've seen though varied between somewhat usable and disastrous. No problem for an experienced user.