First Yanagiba what to get (cheap price cheap quality)

I'm quite new to japanese knifes, in fact i actually have western knifes. Currently I have a Sabatier Santoku and a Zwilling four start chef's knife (210mm I think). I am able to sharpen them ok-ish, but it's very much something I'm still learning. I'm waiting for some sharpening stones (3000/8000) and sharpening guide to arrive. I'm not too put off by this since it's something I should learn anyway.

Anyway, I'm very much keen on learning to do sashimi and lately I've been also busy making sliced beef and I'm coming to the conclusion that I need a longer and thinner knife that doesn't flex. I'm able to make the thin slices (sub mm slices), but the thickness of the Santoku or chef's knife destroy the structure of the meat. In addition the limited length make it so that my slices are limited to things that are less than 2 cm deep (otherwise i need to saw into the meat which again destroys the structure)

Now because I know my limitations I'm trying start out with some cheap yanagiba (also to learn how to sharpen a single sided knife). However i'm not seeing anything other than a 210mm sekiryu.

Do you guys have any recommendations on a cheap yanagiba that will let me learn to cut and sharpen?

For what i've found:
Fiskars Fuzion yanagiba 240mm (I just don't know if this is really a one sided yanagiba or just a westernized/scadinavian knife) -- EUR 22,97
Sekiryu Yanagiba 210 EUR -- 21,90
Narihira Yanagiba Sashimi Knife 240mm -- EUR 33,27

I would ideally want 270mm or even 300mm but there is nothing really cheap that is over 240mm... but I'm open to suggestions.

What's your budget? And why are you seemingly insisting on buying some "cheap" -- sounds like you're serious about obtaining a quality result.

In time I might get the skills to get some serious results. Right now I think i'll just damage the knife more than I would sharpen it.

Budget would be as cheap as possible so that I can screw up when cutting/sharpening, while also being effective as a knife (i.e. a 150mm yanagiba doesn't make much sense)

Ah forgot to fill in the questionnaire

LOCATION
What country are you in?



KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Yanagiba

Are you right or left handed?
Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Indifferent

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
The longer the better

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
Yes

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
As cheap as possible without the knife being to short to be usable


KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Slicing meat, fish

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Chef's knife or Santoku

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
hammer or pinch

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Slicing, push cut, Walking (although the latter two wouldn't be used for this knife)


What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
Slicing performance

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
ugly is good, as long as it's not dangerous

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
not needed. Training knife

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
Easier to sharpen.

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
Idealy a long retention, but anything is ok as long as I don't have to sharpen it every week


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
yes

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
yes

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
yes


SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
Cheap learning knife

Suggest you may be better served with a suji than a yani. The suji would be a better all around slicer for cooked meats, more than adequate for home sushi use and more versatile than a yani. And you could put off that single bevel thing until you get a little deeper in the rabbit hole. A 240 would be fine for most household tasks, a 270 would take on anything what needs slicing.

If you've got to have a yani then the Uraku from JKI is an excellent value. QUality on inexpensive singe bevels can be hit or miss. Ensure that you buy from reputable dealer. Any of the sponsoring vendors here would meet that criteria.

i got lucky on a no-name listed ebay auction. still not really sure what it is but it takes a great edge. and dont be scared about sharpening, its not a big deal. a little different than double bevel but i didnt find it any more difficult.

What was the length of your noname knife?

dont have it in front of me, but around 240mm or so

+1 on the Gesshin Uraku white steel 270 yanagiba. Very hard to find a better quality blade at in that price range.

keithsaltydog said:

+1 on the Gesshin Uraku white steel 270 yanagiba. Very hard to find a better quality blade at in that price range.

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What this guy said!

I bought a cheap yanagiba ($65) off metal master last year.
It was my first carbon knife and my first single bevel knife - both were quite scary for me when I bought it.
If I had the time over I would buy a nice knife, a knife that I really wanted. Neither aspect of the knife turned out to be in any way scary.
I did get a 240, which is a bit on the short side, at least that's how it feels to me.

Don't get me wrong, I can put a scary edge on it, and it does what it is supposed to, it's just not the knife I would have bought with my current knowledge of carbon and single bevel knives.
Just my 2 cents

kevpenbanc said:

I bought a cheap yanagiba ($65) off metal master last year.
It was my first carbon knife and my first single bevel knife - both were quite scary for me when I bought it.
If I had the time over I would buy a nice knife, a knife that I really wanted. Neither aspect of the knife turned out to be in any way scary.
I did get a 240, which is a bit on the short side, at least that's how it feels to me.

Don't get me wrong, I can put a scary edge on it, and it does what it is supposed to, it's just not the knife I would have bought with my current knowledge of carbon and single bevel knives.
Just my 2 cents

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I can imagine that... however what I notice with most things I'm getting new into... You don't know what you want until you start missing features etc... Example. I bought a beautiful bike. I really thought that would be the last bike I would ever buy. But as time goes by you start to used to things and you start to notice you miss things. Now my second bike is much better, and even there I still notice I'm missing some things. However given the perspective i have with the old bike, i'm much better at appreciating my new bike.

Same goes for knives. I used to cut with fairly blunt knives, I didn't know any better. But now I can appreciate the better blades more.

Also I'm fairly aware of my limited sharpening skills and I would hate myself if I destroy a 200$ blade.

On that point I'm not looking to buy a 200$ Gesshin Uraku. That's a bit much for a first knife of that type. It's like giving a Porsche to a 16 year old to learn to drive.

Completely understand.
My real error was buying a knife that is too short
I have my eye on a 300mm takohiki - if it ever comes back into stock !

I'd be surprised if you destroy the knife. I actually find it easier to sharpen a single bevel knife than a double bevel, not that they are hard. I've been sharpening less than a year, so I'm no expert.

But I remember the trepidation well, and if you are more comfortable going with a cheapie, well it's your money and your choice

kevpenbanc said:

Completely understand.
My real error was buying a knife that is too short
I have my eye on a 300mm takohiki - if it ever comes back into stock !

I'd be surprised if you destroy the knife. I actually find it easier to sharpen a single bevel knife than a double bevel, not that they are hard. I've been sharpening less than a year, so I'm no expert.

But I remember the trepidation well, and if you are more comfortable going with a cheapie, well it's your money and your choice

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How do you think you are going to ruin a knife?? its just metal. you might scratch it up, easily fixed with sandpaper, etc. not going to mess up geometry but even if you managed to do that somehow, thats fixable as well.

DaninMD said:

How do you think you are going to ruin a knife?? its just metal. you might scratch it up, easily fixed with sandpaper, etc. not going to mess up geometry but even if you managed to do that somehow, thats fixable as well.

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I don't, which is why I recommended buying a nice knife.
Maybe I should have been a bit more forceful in dismissing the OPs concerns about ruining a knife, but then I remember the reservations I had buying my first yanagiba.
I related my experiences and the fact that I would buy a nice knife if given the time over to try and allay the OPs concern. Unsuccessfully by the looks of it. But I can understand that.
We all have to learn in our own ways, my learning process appears to be somewhat similar to jstrikes

Really happy I went with the tojiro 270 yanagiba as my first. I learned a lot about using and sharpening a yanagiba. I didn't go to deep in the pocket for it and I would say after a bit of very enjoyable and educational work I have a great piece of steel that cuts wonderfully.

where did you find a 270mm tojiro yanagiba? I have a 300mm tojiro i might want to buy (tojiro mv) I'm also considering a tojiro dp 270mm sujihiki (atleast tojiro is calling it a carving knife, if that's the case i might just stick with the yanagiba).

Lastly I thought. Why not get both and just skip on the tojrio itk kiritsuke (I was also looking for a multi purpose knife). I'm not to sure how usefull a sujihiki is with thin slices of salmon and ham. I'm pretty adept at slicing sub mm slices of meat. But the bottle neck always ends up being the knife. I would like to avoid that with a yanagiba.

Someone here mentioned Masamoto KK from JCK recently. I always prefer going the quality route. I understand your hesitation however. But selling that cheap knife some day in the future might be more difficult than selling a knife with good reputation. Most people here are familiar with sharpening, so I doubt your limited sharpening skills would frighten away KKF from buying one of your knives even if you sharpened them improperly (whatever that means)...

Ok then let me rephrase the question. What would be best suited. A Tojiro MV yanagiba (300mm, molybdenum vanadium) or a Tojiro DP slicer (sujihiki? 270mm)

Purpose, to slice boneless raw meat and fish. Main concern is slicing sub mm slices.

I'm on the fence for either. I will probably get a other knife for vegetables, and I have a chef's knife + santoku for deboning if I need to.

daveb said:

Suggest you may be better served with a suji than a yani. The suji would be a better all around slicer for cooked meats, more than adequate for home sushi use and more versatile than a yani. And you could put off that single bevel thing until you get a little deeper in the rabbit hole. A 240 would be fine for most household tasks, a 270 would take on anything what needs slicing.

If you've got to have a yani then the Uraku from JKI is an excellent value. QUality on inexpensive singe bevels can be hit or miss. Ensure that you buy from reputable dealer. Any of the sponsoring vendors here would meet that criteria.

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Tojiro would not be on my short list (the ones I've seen look like they were dragged behind a truck down a gravel road) but many people enjoy them.

Out of those two, Suji all the way.

Bluewayjapan on ebay does cheap carbon yanagi, and is a vendor that carries good stuff.

daveb said:

Tojiro would not be on my short list (the ones I've seen look like they were dragged behind a truck down a gravel road) but many people enjoy them.

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Not sure if you quoted that to reemphasize the sujihiki. But my main worry is that the sujihiki might not be sharp enough to thinly sliced raw meat and fish. (I'm not to worried about cooked foods)

Why a sujihiki? Because of the vg10 steel or because the design?

Just trying to understabd the rationale.

Your skill at sharpening will be the arbiter of how sharp the knife is. That coupled with your skill with the knife (suji or yanagi) will determine how good the slices are.

VG10 is a fine cutlery steel, no worries there.

jstrike said:

Not sure if you quoted that to reemphasize the sujihiki. But my main worry is that the sujihiki might not be sharp enough to thinly sliced raw meat and fish. (I'm not to worried about cooked foods)

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Yep. If you're going to have one slicer it makes sense that it be a suji. A suji can be as sharp as you want it. I prefer them relatively stiff as flexing will affect the cut. Nobody has mentioned the effect of "steering" that a yani (or other single bevel or extreme asymmetric bevel) will have in meat when used vs suji. I don't fully understand it but have experienced it. Maybe somebody smart can explain it.

Timthebeaver said:

Your skill at sharpening will be the arbiter of how sharp the knife is. That coupled with your skill with the knife (suji or yanagi) will determine how good the slices are.

VG10 is a fine cutlery steel, no worries there.

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what about molybdenum vanadium steel? softer steel.

I'm leaning towards the tojiro dp slicer F-806. But my question would be, is this a sujihiki or just a normal wester meatknife? And i want to know if vg10 is a huge advantage over molybdenum vanadium

also... isn't it the case that a yanagiba will always be sharper (if you don't botch the sharpening) since it will have half the angle of a double bevel knife

Steel shouldn't be an important part of your decision. That said, the easiest thing to sharpen would be a simple carbon.
Also, don't confuse sharpness with geometry, a suji can get extremely sharp.
I would recommend an inexpensive carbon suji...and a couple of good stones.

Cheers

Not that I have much to contribute, just having bought a cheap yanagiba of eBay for experimental purposes (just as the original poster), but the reports I've found on the Tojiro sujihiki are fairly good, although some users found it worked much better after thinning. If my cheap knife works better than my Chicago Cutlery slicer, as I suspect it will, I think Santa is going to bring me a 270mm Tojiro suji for Xmas.

The Misono swedish steel gets lots of praise too, but is more expensive.

You will need to be able to sharpen to a very fine edge, the whole advantage of Japanese knives over European ones is the very very sharp edge you get, and that edge allows you to slice very thin with very little distortion.

Longer is better, you want to complete the whole slice from top to bottom in on stroke. Not always possible, but by far the best.

And you may need to think a suji down to get it to cut super thin slices without wedging and tearing.

As far a steering goes, I suspect it has to do with the "unbalanced" edge. If the knife has a hollow on the back, the material you are cutting will "spring" into the hollow, however shallow, and tend to pull the rest of the piece into the edge. My problem slicing, since I'm pretty much a novice at this stuff in spite of my age, is that I almost never get the knife started straight. Probably some steering problems due to the low quality knives I've been using, too, and lack of a screaming sharp edge, but we shall see how that goes as my knives and sharpening skills improve.

Peter

I just got my cheapie -- see my post in Sharpening.

Terrible knife. My $10 Korean ex-car spring knife is hugely better since it actually takes an edge and cuts things.

Good for learning how to sharpen a yanagiba, perhaps, but nothing else.

If you want one to learn to use and sharpen, at least pay enough to get one with high carbon steel laminated to wrought iron. It will most likely be straight, more or less decently ground, and fairly easy to sharpen properly. I'll be working on my for another six or seven hours, I think, and will still end up with a soft stainless steel knife that won't hold an edge.

I'm not complaining, but I do caution that it will be very much like the $5 knives hanging up at the housewares section of the grocery store. Better than a heavy stick for cutting, but not much!

Peter

Peter

Live & learn, I have been there used to use cheap yanagi's long ago. I wasn't the only one, this was 1980's we didn't know any better.

When I got my first quality carbon yanagiba (at the time the most I had ever spent on a knife) it was night & day. Like going from a crap stainless Walmart knife to a High end Gesshin gyuto.