Which Knife: 240mm Gyuto $250 - $500, hand forged carbon steel. Value, reputation.

Hi, I'm looking for the best value in a carbon steel Gyuto ~ 240mm +\- ~30mm. Interested in the $250 and $500 price points as I would love a quality Japanese knife forged by a well respected blacksmith with a long history of producing high quality cutlery and who really knows how to heat treat their steel for optimum performance. Long family history is also a good selling point. Not sure if $250 is too little or $500 is overkill. Maybe the step up in quality isn't noticeable? Thoughts?

Prefer a Western handle but I'm open to a Japanese handle. The knife will be my main knife so handle resistance to liquids is highly desirable.
Prefer a steel which will accept a sharper edge over edge retention, I'm happy to sharpen my own knife.
Live in Calgary Canada but am happy to buy online.
I'm a sucker for excellent fit and finish.
I like to slice food using the full cutting edge when possible.

What I have identified so far:
<$250 :
Hiromoto (Futoshi Nagao) Tenmi-Jyuraki Aogami Super Series
(Ichiro) Hattori HD series

~$500:
Hiromoto (Futoshi Nagao) Honyaki Gyuto
(Shosui) Takeda AS/AS N
(Teruyasu) Fujiwara Maboroshi no meito

I haven't scratched the surface of what is available... Suggestions? Additions/deletions?
Thanks in advance!

As per questionnaire:

LOCATION: Calgary, AB, Canada

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in: Gyuto

Are you right or left handed? Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle? Both are acceptable but I prefer a durable and liquid resistant western handle.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)? 240mm but +\- ~30mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no): no, I desire a carbon steel knife, stainless cladding is totally acceptable.

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? I'm interested in the ~$250 range as well as the ~$500 range, I'm unsure if $250 is too low to get what I want or if $500 is too much...



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment? Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.) All tasks

What knife, if any, are you replacing? I only have junk kitchen cutlery, minus a good bread knife.

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.) No primary grip.

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.) Most motion types.

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.) I'd rather use my camping knifes than my kitchen knifes...

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)? I'm a sucker for excellent fit and finish.

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)? I really like a quality handle with excellent fit and finish.

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)? I like to slice using belly, good food release and easy to sharpen.

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)? I want to strike a balance between edge retention and ease of sharpening. I actually prefer a knife with a carbon steel which takes a sharper edge.



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.) I prefer a synthetic board but can happily use wood.

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.) Yes!

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.) I like to sharpen!

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.) yes!



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
Looking for a hand forged blade made by a blacksmith with history and a great reputation!

Heiji. Great knives, and lots of character.

Shigefusa Kasumi 240. You will have to do some searching or some waiting to get one, but it is a beautiful blade. I have the 210mm version and it is a joy to use. Oozing history and reputation, though it does have a wa handle.

For more choices in Canada look at Toshoknife arts, there are some good looking Kato's and Konosuke's there.

Good luck on your quest!

Kochi 240 from JKI...best knife for the money imo. Added bonus is the burnt chestnut handle which is great even when your hands are covered in chicken fat :laugh:

My Heiji also had the same handle and as ER said, it is a great knife as well.

Gengetsu if you're up for waiting

James said:

Gengetsu if you're up for waiting

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Any idea how fast these will go out of stock once they are listed. And if by chance I am on the site when it happens I will be the lucky new owner of one as well.

Welcome fellow Calgarian!

I'm sure you have dropped by Knifewear to take a good around, if not then poke around it's good place to start.

To help us out here are some more questions , do you prefer a thin or thick blade ? curved profile or flat ?
The "Western Itinomonn Kasumi 240mm Gyuto Thuya Burl " at JNS (vendor here) is pretty sexy. Check out Bloodroot blades, American maker but they are sure putting out a lot of good looking blades.

Are you sure you have to have carbon? I recently got a Tanaka R2 Wa from Chubo, and it's one of the best knives I've ever owned. From what I've been told, Tanaka-San is doing full forging, but he might be working from pre-clad blanks, I don't know. It's a wonderful knife, regardless.

Mizuno hontanren series blue #2 clad blade .

slash said:

Mizuno hontanren series blue #2 clad blade .

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Hmmm, yeah, no. Not a knife for a newbie. A great knife for the experienced.

EdipisReks said:

Hmmm, yeah, no. Not a knife for a newbie. A great knife for the experienced.

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Because of the wide bevel? JCK offers them with regular assymetric convex grind now as well as the wide bevel version

Von blewitt said:

Because of the wide bevel? JCK offers them with regular assymetric convex grind now as well as the wide bevel version

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No, because they tend to need thinning. I recommended a Heiji, you know.

EdipisReks said:

No, because they tend to need thinning. I recommended a Heiji, you know.

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Of course... Fwiw the one I purchased recently was nice & thin, might still be a case of pot luck though

Von blewitt said:

Of course... Fwiw the one I purchased recently was nice & thin, might still be a case of pot luck though

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I've yet to own one that I that I considered to be thin out of the box (though the construction and HT on each has been great), so there might just be a nice sample variation involved.

I've had three, for what it's worth.

Ducman said:

(Teruyasu) Fujiwara Maboroshi no meito

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2 more recent purchases of mine:

Watanabe Pro - nice finish, which you mentioned you wanted, and really nice knife; really stays sharp and I see why a few pros love it

The Fujiwara Maboroshi no meito - was always curious and finally got one; amazing cutting, just falls through; people complain about the finish, but the bits of roughness are nothing a bit of sandpaper wouldn't fix if you want, and I like the non-fussy handmade 'tool' feel it has. (To me much of the general f&f talk is way overdone because as soon as you start using a knife it's going to get messed up and scratched, chipped, discoloured, etc. If the Maboroshi came with that temporary perfect look, they'd cost a lot more.)

Shigefusa - I've had a few and, contrary to what was said, they're not hard to get. My own gyuto was too lightweight for me and I sold it. Sure, very pretty knives, but then I'd feel I constantly had to re-finish them anytime there was a scratch. Fun knives if you like to do that

I could not agree more on the Fujiwaras. The concept is simple, you buy the blade and a rudimentary handle is fitted. That is the price you pay for hand forged goodness but you can buy his knives direct at a much better price.

I find it works better with the Maboroshis than with the Nashijis, the latter too utilitarian even for my rustic taste!

If I had around $500 I would pick one of this makers
Shigefusa
Kato
Konosuke Fujiyama

I haven't had a chance to go to knifewear but will soon.

In response to your questions, I believe I would prefer a thin blade with a flat profile. But I don't have enough experience to say for sure. My reasoning is, I do like to slice vs rock and chop, I also like to use the full cutting edge.

I find myself drawn to knifes which the blade smith has many years of experience with a brand with a long and reputable history.
Thanks!

MikeHL said:

Welcome fellow Calgarian!

I'm sure you have dropped by Knifewear to take a good around, if not then poke around it's good place to start.

To help us out here are some more questions , do you prefer a thin or thick blade ? curved profile or flat ?
The "Western Itinomonn Kasumi 240mm Gyuto Thuya Burl " at JNS (vendor here) is pretty sexy. Check out Bloodroot blades, American maker but they are sure putting out a lot of good looking blades.

Click to expand...

I haven't had a chance to go to knifewear but will soon.

In response to your questions, I believe I would prefer a thin blade with a flat profile. But I don't have enough experience to say for sure. My reasoning is, I do like to slice vs rock and chop, I also like to use the full cutting edge.

I find myself drawn to knifes which the blade smith has many years of experience with a brand with a long and reputable history.
Thanks!

"Thin" is usually more associated with monosteel carbon wa gyuto (which can be fine knives, but not the traditional style you are looking for).

Yoshikane V2 from Epicurean Edge is a possibility. These run long for wa-handled gyuto (240mm heel-to-tip). Some variation in weight/thinness with these. At the claimed weight of 180 grams, this is pretty agile.

http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=89958

Gesshin Ittetsu at JKI is also a lighter carbon san-mai/forged knife.

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...ttetsu-240mm-white-2-hon-kasumi-wa-gyuto.html

Masamoto KS based on your requirements and experience. They are one of the most prestigious and historical Japanese knife houses and at a level where paying more really only buys more performance if you are after something specific. They do not qualify as being "boutique" though, if that's what you're after.
The KS series is relatively thin for a traditional carbon and profile is one of the best known/most frequently copied.

I personally like Heiji as well but I would not consider it an all rounder performance-wise. Shigefusa are good knives but far from a value proposition. Katos have an unusual design from a smith who primarily makes swords (which does not guarantee their performance in the kitchen).

Shigs and Katos are also prob among the most reactive steels you can deal with... so I do not recommend you to start there based on what you are upgrading from. You don't really want to be learning about maintenance on those as they're pretty much functional art (hence price premium).

While the Masamoto is not exactly a beater, they don't come finished in a way that will make you cringe at every scratch or patina (at least it hurts me less compared to the Shig/Kato)

EdipisReks said:

Are you sure you have to have carbon? I recently got a Tanaka R2 Wa from Chubo, and it's one of the best knives I've ever owned. From what I've been told, Tanaka-San is doing full forging, but he might be working from pre-clad blanks, I don't know. It's a wonderful knife, regardless.

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Thanks for the information, I have my heart set on a carbon knife, they are what I have come to know and enjoy. I also like caring for my knifes, I have no doubt that whatever I buy will last me for an exceptionally long time, quite possibly a lifetime. I like to buy quality, I don't foresee myself upgrading for many years.

Ducman said:

Thanks for the information, I have my heart set on a carbon knife, they are what I have come to know and enjoy. I also like caring for my knifes, I have no doubt that whatever I buy will last me for an exceptionally long time, quite possibly a lifetime. I like to buy quality, I don't foresee myself upgrading for many years.

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Carbon steel? I'd get another Gesshin Kagekiyo, or another Carter.

insomniac said:

Shigs and Katos are also prob among the most reactive steels you can deal with... so I do not recommend you to start there based on what you are upgrading from. You don't really want to be learning about maintenance on those as they're pretty much functional art (hence price premium).

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The kato is pretty unreactive as far as carbons go....

James said:

The kato is pretty unreactive as far as carbons go....

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Not sure what your experience is, but I am in Hong Kong and store my knives on a Japanese cypress rack. The normal Kato and a white #1 Nakiri which I removed the kurouchi from are the only knives I have that rust just sitting by themselves in the summer (and I mean this over 1-2 days, not weeks). In use, the Kato I have has scarred after cutting onions and putting it down to open the door. I'm not the patina type and clean/re-polish regularly, but I am not sure I would judge reactivity after forming a patina as the best base metric.

of course it is issue of the cladding, since the core I believe is just white steel #2.

I suppose the damascus Kato has been better. but then you'd best compare damascus vs damascus, in context which I think it has been more reactive than my other damascus knives, but I only own 3. my kato damascus is sekisou type.

mhlee said:

Carbon steel? I'd get another Gesshin Kagekiyo, or another Carter.

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Out the of the listed price range, unfortunately, but I agree.

insomniac said:

Not sure what your experience is, but I am in Hong Kong and store my knives on a Japanese cypress rack. The normal Kato and a white #1 Nakiri which I removed the kurouchi from are the only knives I have that rust just sitting by themselves in the summer (and I mean this over 1-2 days, not weeks). In use, the Kato I have has scarred after cutting onions and putting it down to open the door. I'm not the patina type and clean/re-polish regularly, but I am not sure I would judge reactivity after forming a patina as the best base metric.

of course it is issue of the cladding, since the core I believe is just white steel #2.

I suppose the damascus Kato has been better. but then you'd best compare damascus vs damascus, in context which I think it has been more reactive than my other damascus knives, but I only own 3. my kato damascus is sekisou type.

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I'm not sure if different kato lines use different cladding steel, but I used a JNS workhorse kato and found its patina development remarkably slow. After a month of use, it formed a very light patina with no signs of rust. Of course, Boston is neither as hot nor as humid as HK, but I'm still surprised to hear about your experience.

The JNS Kato do rust slower than many other carbons. ... And 'Just white steel...' - nothing wrong with white steel! Anyway, Kato are normally Blue #2 according to where I asked in Japan (and Max says) and JNS Kato have some other kind of 'special' steel. At any rate, it's the cladding that you'd get the most rust on.

insomniac - maybe you rub out the rust too much, and/or maybe whatever way you do it leaves too much surface area (micro-abrasions). Maybe try finer nat stone slurry? That's what I use, and no rust issues.

You may be corrrect. My comment is just based in comparison to the 30 or so other carbons and semis I've got--I feel that if I need to put in special effort to prevent rust and reactivity, that is a more reactive knife. Haven't put a huge amount of research into the knife, just judging it in my own hands and versus my own collection. As mentioned, there's only one other knife I have that does something comparable (a Kamata Nakiri in white #1 from which I removed the original kurouchi finish)

This is after me being out of town for 3 days this month, just hanging out on an open air rack.

Its a great cutter but I find myself reaching for it progressively less due to the high maintenance. I had some luck previously putting on a light coating of camellia but I don't really wanna coat it in camellia everyday just to prevent this. It does affect taste. Its not half as bad with the damascus Kato, but I still had a weird patch show on the damascus days after it arrived (in Spring).