What do you all want to talk about? Also a little about us

I have some ideas of what kinds of threads we could get going in this forum, but wanted to get your thoughts. Of course we can do a gallery thread with recent work, but are you all interested in WIP or shop tour kind of stuff? Materials and approaches? Designs?

A little about us to get the ball rolling:

David and I are both full-time makers and we collaborate on virtually every knife we make and even almost every aspect of the knifemaking process. We've been more independent in the past and actually had two separate shops. Now we have a central shop and property where we both live with our respective families. It's rural woods on a small lake. We fish and hunt for our protein and have a big garden. We also forage and sell chanterelles, oyster mushrooms, etc. at local restaurants. We do our own butchery of feral hogs and deer from breakdown through charcuterie and are always testing new designs. We do about 25 animals a year in one way or another so get a good amount of testing in.

We hand forge. We use a power hammer only for initial mass movement of tomahawks and axes currently. We make one-off pieces, primarily customs. We try to do as much in-house as we can while still maintaining the highest quality possible. We collect our own woods and handle materials for instance, but have them stabilized by K&G for the best quality stabilization. We use recycled materials as much as possible, but with steel for instance we get each material metallurgically analyzed and know the exact chemical composition. Our heat treatment involves Rockwell hardness testing for every knife, qualitative testing, controlled kilns (moving to high temp salts currently), appropriate quenchants, and true cryogenic treatment for alloys that benefit from it. We also work with new steel when we don't have an ideal alloy for a type of knife in the right dimensions or if specifically requested by the customer. We particularly enjoy the hand forging process and our bought steels that we typically work with are 52100, O1, and CruForge V. We work with a wide range of other carbon steel alloys from recycled sources, matching appropriate alloys and heat treatments to knife style and intended use.

We're always game to do something new and are always in design school. Some of the most fun we have are working with professionals and individuals to make knives designed for certain cuts and/or tailoring knives to a person's cutting style or dimensions.

Our knives are intended to be used in a pro environment. We try to keep our prices attainable for the pro market and our design and materials choices are intended primarily for function. We strive to continually improve the functionality of our pieces and welcome constructive feedback from you all!

We stand behind our work completely. Lifetime transferrable warranty and free sharpening. If you're unhappy with one of our pieces we will make it right, either buying it back within the first 4-6 weeks or use or making a replacement piece.

I look forward to getting to know you all!

~Luke

I have loved the knives I have seen so far. You guys are doing great work!

Yes to WIPs
Yes to shop tour
I'd be interested to know who you guys get inspiration from knifemaker-wise. Are there any other knives you've studied that you really liked grind and/or profile wise?

Really great to hear you guys are doing your own butchery.

The process that went into those oyster knives. Those were awesome.

Also, everything else. It's hard to say what others find interesting, so talk about anything. Think of it like your Grandpa. He'll tell you anything, and doesn't care if anyone finds it interesting. But it usually is.

It sounds like you guys are living the dream! livings in the woods, making knives full time for a living. Hunting, butchering, foraging, recycling materials. I can't describe how impressive that is! Sustainable knifemaking... Good stuff!

Oh and I think everyone would love all of what you mentioned. WIP, shop tour, gallery threads give us the lot

I would love to see a shop tour! Every time I work on something the following week is spent rearranging and reorganizing my space. The organization of a knife shop space is fascinating to me.

You guys do amazing work both on blades, handles and rehandles. I love my new Gyuto and the handle you put on my old forgie

+1 to everything that was mentioned. Glad I just got on your list before the madness ensued.

I'd love to see a breakdown of what recycled steels you use for what knives and what the process is. Railroad spikes, saw blades, files, etc.

I'd also love to see an axe wip though it's a bit off topic I guess.

You guys use any bone or antler from your hunting in your knives? Leather for sheaths?

BloodrootLS said:

Our knives are intended to be used in a pro environment. We try to keep our prices attainable for the pro market and our design and materials choices are intended primarily for function. We strive to continually improve the functionality of our pieces and welcome constructive feedback from you all!

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This is something I really respect and I also feel that is a common thread among other custom knife makers that I really value. Marko has a similar character to his knives (among many others!). Beautiful works of art that are also examples of great functionality and durability. I'm not sure I would want to bring one of y'alls knives to work (because they are too damn pretty) - but I always enjoy seeing them and I have zero doubt that they are made for action & great performers. And even though I'm on a cook's wages, I do wish y'all all the success in the world and hope that you get a premium market value for all the hard work.

Thanks for taking the time to do this and welcome to KKF!

You had me at "feral hogs" :hungry: It would be great to see some posts about your charcuterie. Oh, and of course the knife stuff...

knyfeknerd said:

Yes to WIPs
Yes to shop tour
I'd be interested to know who you guys get inspiration from knifemaker-wise. Are there any other knives you've studied that you really liked grind and/or profile wise?

Really great to hear you guys are doing your own butchery.

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Sounds good! Great question about inspiration. Honestly we haven't handled many high-end kitchen knives until pretty recently except for a Carter suji that Tom sent us a few years ago. We got started in kitchen knives and learned profiles etc. by throwing parties where we'd smoke a whole hog or deer at David's house with local chef's who were friends or friends of friends. We would have 10-15 different designs, grinds, profiles and would watch them work and ask a lot of questions- you know "ok, now try this one, what do you think about. . .". And using them in our own kitchens. We've also sent a lot of knives out to kitchens around the country for detailed feedback. That being said we also did/do a lot of looking around and reading and I would say that Carter was one of our biggest influences, particularly with his funyaki/funayuki gyutos. I primarily draw-cut and love flat profile knives. I also like fine tips on chefs and gyutos. They feel like racecars to me-aggressive and sexy. Rader's handles are a truly beautiful design and have been a big influence in profile, though neither David or I are big fans of the feel of a girthy palm swell like his or Kramer's in knives that we personally use. Marko's gyutos have always captured me as well for their clean design and lines, which I also appreciate about Devin's work. Both of these maker's make knives that seem to scream to be used, which to me is as high a compliment I can give for a knife design.

One of the first lessons of making chef knives for us was that very talented professionals drastically differ in what they prefer in terms of handle styles, blade profiles, and even balance. During those dinners we would have one chef would love one aspect of a knife, while the other did not like that same aspect. This has really driven how we've developed as makers honestly and has kept us away from getting standard styles. We emphasize that everyone's hand, habits, techniques, aesthetic preferences are very different, which is the main reason we make one-off pieces instead of models. It is most important that the customer gets something they will love. If someone else uses the knife and isn't impressed, well, that's a risk we're willing to take. What matters most is that the person who designed the knife with us is stoked about their knife. Sometimes we make things for people that we personally don't like or wouldn't use, though we do try to steer people toward what we think would look or function best. This compromise pushes us to be well-rounded in our design and we learn a lot from these orders, often discovering aspects that we like and later replicate even when we initially didn't think we would.

~Luke

pleue said:

+1 to everything that was mentioned. Glad I just got on your list before the madness ensued.

I'd love to see a breakdown of what recycled steels you use for what knives and what the process is. Railroad spikes, saw blades, files, etc.

I'd also love to see an axe wip though it's a bit off topic I guess.

You guys use any bone or antler from your hunting in your knives? Leather for sheaths?

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Pleue,

The first rule with recycled steel is that you never know what you have unless you get it spec'd. You may be able to get close, but you most likely won't! What's been most surprising to us is that much of the steel in sawblades for instance come from custom smelts or from alloys designated in other countries. AISI categories go out the window a little bit. A lot of steels like 1080, 1084, 1075, 1095 are the base, but have 0.3-0.5 chrome (or more, or less), or a dash of nickel, or both, or neither ;-), or high manganese. Some are 1095, especially the older ones (think late 1800's), but have excessively low manganese and virtually no resistance to grain growth more like a bloomery steel (makes it touchy to work with). We have some for instance that Parks 50, the fastest oil quench that I know of cannot quench well and must be done in brine, no matter what the austenitizing temperature.

In my opinion stay away from railroad spikes whatever you do if you want a good knife.

Files are also a range, though more predictable, within a broad brushstroke of relatively simple strongly hypereutetic steel, than many sources of steel. I've worked some that were F-series tool steel (which I would give anything to get more of- it's quite rare), 1.3 C W1, and 1.2 C W1. Some are very chemically similar to Aogami White # 1&2. Interesting that many backyard smiths (and us early on) use these to practice with or make knives from as they're VERY tricky to heat treat well and nearly impossible to do well without good temperature control and state of the art quenchants and/or many years of experience like some of the Japanese smiths. Using steel this hypereutetic can generate all kinds of terrible problems for smiths, especially those without good testing equipment. Rasps may be decent steel, but as often as not they have not been in our experience and we avoid them now.

We work with a local sheathmaker who's awesome and he buys his leather. Deer and hog hide is about useless for knife sheaths as it's too supple and thin. We do use antler for sure, though we get it stabilized by K&G as it likes to shrink and swell a good bit, and can do so over long time-spans.

~Luke

Sounds like forge tour and WIP's are on the docket. Thanks for your feedback everybody. WildBoar, love your handle! I am just getting into charcuterie outside of basic sausages and mostly have been learning from a friend/customer who we hunt with. We have a feral hog prosciutto that should be finished here in a few months that's our first. . . I'll let you know how it comes out. The country hams and Canadian bacon have been awesome. Such a different meat than domestic pork. Dark and flavorful. Acorn fed pork- mmmmm.

~Luke

I can't tell you how excited I am to see you guys do some WIP's!

Tour's & WIP'S..... I am all in. Love your work!

FYI: I specialize in charcuterie so please let me know if there is anything I can assist you with.

WOW, impressive. I liked the knifes you are making, but now, after reading your lifestyle and ideology and overview of the process I feel like I must own one. I think, it would be helpful if you can post on how to get started on ordering one, unless I missed it somewhere.
And yes, please, a WIP of your gorgeous knives!!!

lus1: :goodpost:

Luke and David ,
Its great to read your philosophy in making knives and your connection to food . Really looking forward for the WIP and forge tour

Ruso said:

WOW, impressive. I liked the knifes you are making, but now, after reading your lifestyle and ideology and overview of the process I feel like I must own one. I think, it would be helpful if you can post on how to get started on ordering one, unless I missed it somewhere.
And yes, please, a WIP of your gorgeous knives!!!

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Ruso,

Thank you for your kind words and interest in ordering from us. For everyone's benefit I'll give a description on how our particular process works.

There are two ways that we sell our knives:

1) We can start a custom for you. This process entails our having a detailed conversation in order to tailor a knife to you. Once we settle on a design and a price, we ask that you make a $100 deposit to reserve a spot on the waiting list—currently 23 months.

You are welcome to discuss and/or amend your order as you have further thoughts during this time. When the knife is complete, we will send pictures for your approval and settle up for the balance (typically we email a Paypal invoice, but we also take a mailed check).

2) We also have a newsletter that we publish on the first Monday of (nearly) every month around lunch EST with our available knives. When the letter is out, people email us what they would like. It sells out fairly quickly, but if you catch it in the first little bit, there's a good chance that you can get what you want. You can sign up for this on our website or PM me with your email address and I can add you.

If you are interested in discussing a custom you can email us through the website or directly (they're both the same) at [email protected].

Thanks for your interest!

~Luke

cheflarge said:

FYI: I specialize in charcuterie so please let me know if there is anything I can assist you with.

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That's awesome. Thank you! I'll let you guys know how this prociutto turns out when we cut into it. If it's a success I want to cure several more hams this year as I love prociutto.

~Luke

BloodrootLS said:

Pleue,

The first rule with recycled steel is that you never know what you have unless you get it spec'd. You may be able to get close, but you most likely won't! What's been most surprising to us is that much of the steel in sawblades for instance come from custom smelts or from alloys designated in other countries. AISI categories go out the window a little bit. A lot of steels like 1080, 1084, 1075, 1095 are the base, but have 0.3-0.5 chrome (or more, or less), or a dash of nickel, or both, or neither ;-), or high manganese. Some are 1095, especially the older ones (think late 1800's), but have excessively low manganese and virtually no resistance to grain growth more like a bloomery steel (makes it touchy to work with). We have some for instance that Parks 50, the fastest oil quench that I know of cannot quench well and must be done in brine, no matter what the austenitizing temperature.

In my opinion stay away from railroad spikes whatever you do if you want a good knife.

Files are also a range, though more predictable, within a broad brushstroke of relatively simple strongly hypereutetic steel, than many sources of steel. I've worked some that were F-series tool steel (which I would give anything to get more of- it's quite rare), 1.3 C W1, and 1.2 C W1. Some are very chemically similar to Aogami White # 1&2. Interesting that many backyard smiths (and us early on) use these to practice with or make knives from as they're VERY tricky to heat treat well and nearly impossible to do well without good temperature control and state of the art quenchants and/or many years of experience like some of the Japanese smiths. Using steel this hypereutetic can generate all kinds of terrible problems for smiths, especially those without good testing equipment. Rasps may be decent steel, but as often as not they have not been in our experience and we avoid them now.

We work with a local sheathmaker who's awesome and he buys his leather. Deer and hog hide is about useless for knife sheaths as it's too supple and thin. We do use antler for sure, though we get it stabilized by K&G as it likes to shrink and swell a good bit, and can do so over long time-spans.

~Luke

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EDIT: Meant Shirogami instead of Aogami in the context above when talking about the files. However, F-series tool steel is very like Aogami (tungsten and very high C, little else) and we have come across this steel in files on the infrequent occasion.

Hey Luke, what's it like working with a partner? Any advice for someone possibly looking to do the same in the future?

Don Nguyen said:

Hey Luke, what's it like working with a partner? Any advice for someone possibly looking to do the same in the future?

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Don,

Great question. Honestly I don't see how people do without one, but I imagine finding a good person to be your partner would be tough. Having a business partner is almost like having another marriage without most of the benefits. . . David and I got really lucky in working with one another as we get along really well and both of us are making the choice to be full-time for lifestyle more than money, which helps diffuse some of the tensions. With the amount of work that it takes to run a small business: taxes, customer contact, website development, social media, insurance/paperwork, invoicing, packing-up knives to mail, collecting or purchasing materials, maintaining equipment- it's hard to get any time in the shop. Unfortunately the only time you get paid for in all that work is the time in the shop. Between the two of us we probably get as many knives built as one person doing knifemaking alone 40-50 hrs/week. A lot of guys doing it alone flounder, especially once they get some attention for their work and their time commitment to press and customer contact goes through the roof.

Having a partner has other important considerations for us. It helps insure the longevity and stability of our business. If I get in a car wreck or get sick, or David does, the other of us can keep the ball rolling for a while. If one of us dies the business doesn't disappear, with everyone's deposits for instance. It also means we can separately take vacations without having to completely ignore anyone who contacts us or wants to stop by and a pick up their custom knife that's complete, or get fitted for a knife, etc. Continuity is really helpful and I think pretty necessary to promote customer trust, especially when the waiting list gets long.

It also helps push our quality up as sometimes if you've been staring at a piece you're working on for days you miss aspects of it that need attention like scratches or slight profile changes. Having another set of eyes on each piece is great. David and I work towards duplicating each other- teaching each other the skills that we individually are best at. We love the craft and the business side of it and want to enjoy all aspects of it so learning all of it instead of specializing is personally important to us. This also ties into the continuity that I discussed above.

Having someone to bounce ideas off of with the knife building, but more importantly the business side of things keeps you from doing something stupid, which is VERY easy to do. We can talk each other "off the ledge" when we're stressed by the business as well.

Of course there are also negative aspects of having to share a business with someone, but in our case it has been absolutely the best thing.

~Luke

As somewhat new to the kitchen knife world, what has been your thought process on blade geometry? What type grinds do you currently offer and are there any other types you plan on experimenting with in the future?

Cheers

chinacats said:

As somewhat new to the kitchen knife world, what has been your thought process on blade geometry? What type grinds do you currently offer and are there any other types you plan on experimenting with in the future?

Cheers

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Chinacats, Here I go divulging our "secrets";-). Your question is also structured like a good question on an essay exam, but I'll try to be brief!

There is always more to experiment with when it comes to grinds, and we still do quite a bit. Mostly we've been experimenting with single bevels with urasuki lately, but I'll mostly talk about gyutos and chef knives in this post as I imagine that's what you're mostly interested in. We of course do a lot of different grinds on the wide variety of other styles of knives like cleavers, hunters, blah blah.

For a few years now we've been doing a lot of asymmetric grinds that we of course fit to the customer's handedness. The degree of asymmetry depends on the style of the knife and also sometimes on what the customer says they cut primarily/their technique. On sujis we often do a very strong asymmetry so that the knife performs more like it has a blade road like a yanagiba when slicing, but isn't so thick and doesn't have the potential steerage problems. On many gyutos it is more common for us to use a 70/30 or 60/40 approximation. On our asymmetrics we typically do a nearly full-flat on the back (convexed extremely slightly near the edge) and a form of convexity on the face. You could call this an asymmetrical semi-convex if you are used to the Z-knives website, but the back would have much less of a bevel to the edge. We've experimented with a few types of convexity and tools and techniques for generating it. We currently primarily use some form of what we call a two-stage grind for most knives. We used to do more complete convexing, but got mediocre results from our testers on stiction, even when it was pretty extreme. The two-stage uses an angle transition which, while subtle, seems to better generate a "break point" where the food can release from the face. Carter's legendary funayukis use this logic more symmetrically and pronounced (partly by the slight hollow-grind) and it's essentially what we're attempting to replicate. This is more like a chisel grind with back bevel, but of course extraordinarily more subtle and it's blended some to not be immediately visible. However, what is most important to us is the thinness behind the edge, no matter what the grind. Stiction is secondary to cutting performance. Personally, I draw-cut most things that are bad for stiction, especially foods like potatoes, so my personal gyuto is nearly full-flat grind as it allows me to get it thinner (whole blade/tip-ward half), not just behind the edge) and my technique is mostly stiction-free anyway. Our narrow blades like most utilities/narrow petties and paring knives are FFG. For or gyutos we also tend to transition the degree of convexity as the blade goes from heel to tip through the distal taper.

Honestly though, there is so much variation within grind "type" from knife to knife due to the thickness of the spine and the height of the blade, alloy and HRC, and degree of distal taper that the above gives only the rough framwork we work off of. We still do some FFG with moderate convexing in the last cm to the edge on 50/50 ground blades too, particularly on Western chefs as it's what people are comfortable with sharpening (our asymmetric grinds are typically matched with asymmetric sharpening). We also make knives for a wide diversity of users and for some people we make some pretty robust knives as we understand how they're going to use them from our conversations with them. A laser at HRC 63 is no good for someone used to a 10" low HRC Henckels for instance. We generally emphasize thinness even on our western knives though and run them up above 60 HRC for tensile strength and edge stability. For some users and applications we use tough alloys though to resist chipping in thin geometries. being able to juggle geometry, hardness, and alloy to try to find sweet spots for specific knives for specific users is the real fun of our job honestly.

~Luke

Love the work that I see on your website. In terms of working with recycled materials, have you ever worked with high temp/corrosion resistant alloys like Hastelloy or Inconel? We have scrap pieces from building calciners.

Namaxy said:

Love the work that I see on your website. In terms of working with recycled materials, have you ever worked with high temp/corrosion resistant alloys like Hastelloy or Inconel? We have scrap pieces from building calciners.

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Thank you! No we've never worked with Hastelloy or Inconel. They're excellent for what they're used for but were not designed to have the properties that would make a good knife. Thanks for keeping us in mind though!

~Luke

Luke,

Thanks for taking the time to give such a thoughtful response, and yes I should've stated that I was mainly referring to a gyuto. That said, from your response I am most curious about how your suji would cut:>)

What you said about juggling all the parts makes perfect sense. I'm glad it's up to you folks to figure out because it is beyond me--I just know how I like them to cut.

Cheers
Jim

Jim,

I took a few WIP shots today as I was doing several different styles of grinds. The grinds are easy to see when they're rough-ground and before they're nicely polished and blended. These grinds are at 36 grit- very coarse, and will thin down and gain a little more subtlety, like convexing near the edge, as we go through the grits. I probably overstated what I said about the suji-ginds some as we have done some like I described (I can't find a picture of one on my computer but there is one on Instagram here: http://instagram.com/p/nTtKmAIf2Q/?modal=true), but most are ground more like our gyutos. There are a few suji/gyuto-hikis in this batch and I'll describe them around the pics.

The first three pictures are of custom a k-tip gyuto-hiki with a left hand asymmetric grind. This is not a two stage grind really, but the angle on the face is steeper than the angle on the back to help the product fall away appropriately when slicing. I'm not an expert with a suji like many of you are, but some asymmetry makes the knife feel more precise to me. I just like the way it cuts better honestly, which is why we do asymmetrics so often.
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These pictures are of a 9 inch Western chef with a pretty strong right handed two-stage grind. You can see in the choil shot the angle change on the left side. When the choil is rounded and everything is blended this becomes difficult to see. Both sides will also get some slight convexing to the final edge during the later grits.
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Here are some pictures of a custom full-flat ground symmetric sujihiki, grind requested by the customer. A burr muddles up the lower right part of the choil in the picture, but they're even.
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Some of the others- a FFG cimeter, a gyuto with a right handed two-stage grind, a monster deba and a taper shot of the symmetric suji.
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~Luke