Which is the best cutting "thick" 210 mm gyuto

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mark76

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I've already discussed with a couple of people here what would be a great gyuto that is thick at the spine but thin behind the edge (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/20272-Knives-thick-at-the-spine-thin-at-the-edge) . Thanks everyone who responded!

In the end I decided to get a Heiji gyuto. It was this picture that convinced me:



The waiting time for this knife (from the master himself) is four months ;) . And it happens that I have funds for one more knife.

Which one would you get? I have only one criterion: cutting performance. The following ones are on my shortlist in this order:

- Kochi
- Watanabe
- Itinomonn

(Shigefusa and Kato are on the shortlist as well, but they're currently not available from the shop I know.)
 
Can't really go wrong with any of the above imho. At this level, cutting performance is highly subjective and technique dependent.


Kato if i were choosing though.
 
I have had 2 kato's ,currently own shig and kochi , i would highly recommend kochi amongst these first


Sent from my iPhone using Kitchen Knife Forum
 
Buy a Kochi and an Itinomonn and you'll have spent the same amount as a Kato, sell the one you don't like, buy a Watanabe, wash, rinse, repeat until you have tried everything you want to try!
 
I was part of a passaround for an itinomonn western with a custom handle, thing was a beast that's for sure, nice and this and cut like a dream, that's just my 2 cents
 
There are a couple of issues in responding to you. The first is that I, and many other owners of the knives on your list, own the 240mm variety. There may well be a difference in the application of the concept "thick knives that cut well" from the 240 to a 210. Can't really tell you, other than the fact that I have a Shigefusa 210 and don't consider it particularly thick (though not a laser by any means.) Just don't own a Shige 240mm. The other issue is that there are at least two on your list with different varieties of the same length: the Kato has its "normal" version, and the workhorse from JNS, and Itinomonn has a carbon and stainless version - each with different profiles, weight, and definition.

I would have liked an itinomonn, but I only go for carbon and it appears, in the pics at least, to have some belly, which I don't like. The Kochi is a real find. It is heavier than normal, but lighter than Kato, Watanabe, or Heiji. If I were making a list it would be Kato, Watanabe, Kochi. (Get the Watanabe with the octagon handle.)
 
Designdog the itinomonn I used western in v2 steel has a nice profile not much belly
 
designdog said:
There are a couple of issues in responding to you. The first is that I, and many other owners of the knives on your list, own the 240mm variety. There may well be a difference in the application of the concept "thick knives that cut well" from the 240 to a 210. Can't really tell you, other than the fact that I have a Shigefusa 210 and don't consider it particularly thick (though not a laser by any means.) Just don't own a Shige 240mm. The other issue is that there are at least two on your list with different varieties of the same length: the Kato has its "normal" version, and the workhorse from JNS, and Itinomonn has a carbon and stainless version - each with different profiles, weight, and definition.

I would have liked an itinomonn, but I only go for carbon and it appears, in the pics at least, to have some belly, which I don't like. The Kochi is a real find. It is heavier than normal, but lighter than Kato, Watanabe, or Heiji. If I were making a list it would be Kato, Watanabe, Kochi. (Get the Watanabe with the octagon handle.)
Click to expand...

The issue of "seems to have belly" has come up again and again. The JNS website pics are taken from an angle that makes it look like there is a lot of belly, but there really isn't. Maksim really needs to take some better pics of the Itinomonn.
 
The western Itonomonn has a good profile, and is just a bit less than what I'd consider thick. Same with the Shig. Both are middle-weights IMO. The kurouchi Itonomonn that I owned was taller, thinner, and felt lighter than my Shig(reminded me of a Kochi I'd tried a couple years before). Kato, watanabe and heiji are definitely in the heavyweight class. All of the knives mentioned are very specific to the individual craftsman. All are excellent cutters, but feel quite different in practice. I'd go Dardeau's route, a path I've taken myself.
 
Pensacola Tiger said:
The issue of "seems to have belly" has come up again and again. The JNS website pics are taken from an angle that makes it look like there is a lot of belly, but there really isn't. Maksim really needs to take some better pics of the Itinomonn.
Click to expand...
My 210 wa nashiji in fact does have quite a bit of belly...no picture weirdness involved.
 
It's tough when pics are the source of confusion in the first place.

FWIW, I'm not referring to belly as a substantial curve focused near the tip, but an overall curviness that makes it less pleasant to use.

I"m considering reprofiling the blade and was playing around a bit in Photoshop, so ignore the green and red lines. The black line is the base profile curve.
D5WDeJv.jpg


Edit: the red and green lines were to see how far one could go with a 5mm drop in height without modifying the spine. A good regrind won't ignore the spine so the lines are not intended to be real profiles
 
I think it's a 210 thing. I have one that is almost the same profile, but kasumi. I actually like it a lot because it is my home knife for a small kitchen with small boards. The big curve gives me a lot of slicing room and there is a flat spot by the tip for fine slicing and a flat spot by the heel for chopping. I hated it in the restaurant but love it for cooking dinner. It is really the only knife I use at home.
 
If I remember correctly, as far as the kurouchi knives go, the original batch (only the 210 was initially available) were not as tall at the heel and had a flatter profile. The second batch (when the 240 and the stainless kasumi knives also became available) were a little taller and had more belly.

Given that Maksim has updated the measurements and picture on this page it would appear that the ones he has in stock now are closer to type one.

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-kurouchi-210mm-wa-gyuto/
 
Maksim now has two different kurouchi 210 gyutos available - one taller with more belly (well, at least according to pictures - I had one of these in hand an indeed the belly was pronounced) and one not as tall with less belly.
 
The tubby profile one I have is the nashiji model from some time ago and the one Timthebeaver posted is vanilla kurouchi with untextured surface that was added recently.
 
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