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BloodrootLS

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We just forged this this over the last few days and I thought I'd open it up to you guys for some of the next steps of the process. It's O1 tool steel and we're going to heat treat it with some others tomorrow. My target will be HRC 62 with a heat treatment that balances wear resistance with fine grain size for edge stability and keenness. So, my questions to you all- are there any grinds you want us to try on this? I'm willing to experiment and try most anything. Any tweaks to the profile we've got going?

DSC_0079.jpg
 
What are the measurements on this? It looks like it will be a suji/slicer?
I vote for an "S" grind!
BTW, I love your integral bolsters......
....very smexy.
 
You probably meant the heel hight and blade thickness , right Chris? +1 for s grind.
 
+1 on the S grind and another on the integral bolsters.

Profile looks interesting.

What kind/shape handle are you going to go with? If going all mad scientist with experiments and taking other requests - one I'd love to see is an integral bolster that blends into a Hinoura-esque handle (octagon on top, oval or quasi-D shape on bottom). I don't think I've seen anybody try that.
 
How about wide bevel hollow grounded.
 
Hey guys, thanks for the feedback! Sounds like "S" grind is the direction we'll go with this (though hollow grind is a cool idea as well Ruso). We'll do it symmetric unless anyone objects. The knife came through the heat treat well and is at HRC 62. CPD, I don't think the current integral bolster setup on this knife will allow for the octagonal on top unfortunately, but I know that handle style and it's pretty cool. We've done it on knives that weren't integral before. We'll have to try that on another knife soon that has a bigger integral bolster to knife-size ratio. This one is best set up for a western handle- any thoughts on handle profile within that genre?

~Luke
 
I like western coke bottle, but I also like something that is kinda beefy/bulky near the bolster that tapers off a little close to the butt(for the pinky/ring finger) and then maybe flares out at the actual butt. An endcap would be sexy too.
 
Hey guys, thanks for the feedback! Sounds like "S" grind is the direction we'll go with this (though hollow grind is a cool idea as well Ruso). We'll do it symmetric unless anyone objects. The knife came through the heat treat well and is at HRC 62. CPD, I don't think the current integral bolster setup on this knife will allow for the octagonal on top unfortunately, but I know that handle style and it's pretty cool. We've done it on knives that weren't integral before. We'll have to try that on another knife soon that has a bigger integral bolster to knife-size ratio. This one is best set up for a western handle- any thoughts on handle profile within that genre?

~Luke


Luke, sounds like a coke-bottle shape is winning the vote so far. I am a fan of them too but I especially like them when it's a more compound shape. eg/ a different profile looking top down versus a side view. I just drew a 30 second sketch (meaning very rough) that shows what I mean more clearly than any explanation I can try to give will. of the the three images, the top one is the top down view. Pretty classic coke bottle with a taper near the ferrule and the recess across the middle. Those always feel good in a pinch grip and have a nice balance to them.

The second sketch is the side profile... it's slightly higher than the spine in the middle but otherwise only has a slight curve along the top edge. The bottom, more ergonomically, has extra belly in the middle. I like these with an angled end - partly to shave weight and help keep a neutral balance on the knife, and partly just because I think they look cool. If the the angle of the end of the handle is parallel to the choil, think it gives a great look. One exception - end caps on an angled handle heel tend to throw me off a little. I like symmetry in the angles for different handle components. If spacers, a ferrule, end cap etc have different angles/lines to them at the joints it tends to make the handle stand out more than the blade - at least to my eye. If an end cap is involved, I like a flatter end similar to the third sketch.

As particular as that is, though, don't think there's any wrong answer if a handle feels good in the hand. I'm looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with.

-seth

d0975a6d-3b35-4f62-9e78-032abd587fbf_zps0409869a.jpg
 
Luke, sounds like a coke-bottle shape is winning the vote so far. I am a fan of them too but I especially like them when it's a more compound shape. eg/ a different profile looking top down versus a side view. I just drew a 30 second sketch (meaning very rough) that shows what I mean more clearly than any explanation I can try to give will. of the the three images, the top one is the top down view. Pretty classic coke bottle with a taper near the ferrule and the recess across the middle. Those always feel good in a pinch grip and have a nice balance to them.

The second sketch is the side profile... it's slightly higher than the spine in the middle but otherwise only has a slight curve along the top edge. The bottom, more ergonomically, has extra belly in the middle. I like these with an angled end - partly to shave weight and help keep a neutral balance on the knife, and partly just because I think they look cool. If the the angle of the end of the handle is parallel to the choil, think it gives a great look. One exception - end caps on an angled handle heel tend to throw me off a little. I like symmetry in the angles for different handle components. If spacers, a ferrule, end cap etc have different angles/lines to them at the joints it tends to make the handle stand out more than the blade - at least to my eye. If an end cap is involved, I like a flatter end similar to the third sketch.

As particular as that is, though, don't think there's any wrong answer if a handle feels good in the hand. I'm looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with.

-seth

d0975a6d-3b35-4f62-9e78-032abd587fbf_zps0409869a.jpg


Seth,

Thank you for your thoughtful response! Yes I agree that a cokebottle handle is winning out and the knife is well set up for the style of handle that you describe in the top two sketches. That style of handle is what we have most often done with our Western handles and is in my opinion one of the most comfortable styles. Here is a version of one that is just like you describe. The view from the top is the same as your sketch.

1920505_530296290423554_680508153_n.jpg


We will likely do some spacers on the handle as well.

The style on the bottom sketch is a through-tang and I agree with you that having a flat angle there looks better. Here is one that has that kind of construction. We did a rustic hammered copper buttplate showing the peened tang that generates the mechanical joint. I like the idea of doing the handle style we discussed above though and not do a buttplate on this knife, but instead have an angled butt.

1798759_530296253756891_408675315_n.jpg


1009952_530296263756890_247834056_n.jpg


~Luke
 
Here's another one with the shape handle we're thinking of I think:

10014555_558647374255112_849528529_n.jpg
 
I like western coke bottle, but I also like something that is kinda beefy/bulky near the bolster that tapers off a little close to the butt(for the pinky/ring finger) and then maybe flares out at the actual butt. An endcap would be sexy too.

Are you thinking something more along these lines where the mass is a little further forward than the examples I just put up? The tang on this one is a little short for an endcap, but we'll have to do one of those in the future!

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I have a knife you guys made with that style handle and its awesome. That is a good style of handle, I can't see you going wrong with it.
 
IMO: A D style meji ala Kramer is the bast handle style.

Grind: S is great if you can do it right.

Geometry: You're nose heavy.
 
IMO: A D style meji ala Kramer is the bast handle style.

Grind: S is great if you can do it right.

Geometry: You're nose heavy.

That style D-handle is really nice, I agree! Our D has that shape typically- angle into the blade on the ridge-side, though we don't regularly do the angled butt like Kramer's do. I also agree with you on the profile, and I'm also not a big fan of the tip geometry as it currently stands. I'll do some reprofiling and see if I can improve it a bit.

A general question to all of you- I have heard a lot of talk about S-grind in the last few years and it's a bit of a buzz word that may have lost some of its meaning. I've heard people use the term in relation to two very different grinds. The one I have heard most often is a convex grind on the top of the blade, transitioning to a relatively narrow band of hollow grind to the edge (grind A). This makes for a knife that needs minimal thinning over time/sharpenings but would shoulder medium-to-tall items away from the blade really well. I have also, though less frequently, heard people describe knives with the opposite grind- where the food would first come in contact with a thin convex, then separate from the blade due to a gentle hollow grind through the middle of the blade going up to the spine (grind B). This too, in theory, would make a blade that releases food quite well and have slightly more resistance to chipping, but would not be quite as thin behind the edge after repeated sharpenings.

Which grind do you want us to do on this knife? A or B? Any thoughts on the topic in general? Thoughts from using knives of these geometries?

~Luke
 
I believe the convex on top and concave lower similar to Heiji (if I remember correctly) cuts great but is the most difficult for the user to maintain--and usually don't because they grind the concave part to a flat through traditional sharpening and thinning.
 
I like the idea of doing the handle style we discussed above though and not do a buttplate on this knife, but instead have an angled butt.


Luke, those examples you put up are exactly the kind of handle I was thinking about. Love the look of them and they're very comfortable.


On the S-grind question - think there was a thread on this just a few weeks ago too. It gets confusing , but Option B of your description is, what I think of as an S grind. The S hollows slightly from the spine to the midpoint, then flares out with a subtle convex area before thinning at the edge. I have a Shig and Heiji in my small collection and I believe that's how they're both ground. Both are amazing cutters.
 
That style D-handle is really nice, I agree! Our D has that shape typically- angle into the blade on the ridge-side, though we don't regularly do the angled butt like Kramer's do. I also agree with you on the profile, and I'm also not a big fan of the tip geometry as it currently stands. I'll do some reprofiling and see if I can improve it a bit.

A general question to all of you- I have heard a lot of talk about S-grind in the last few years and it's a bit of a buzz word that may have lost some of its meaning. I've heard people use the term in relation to two very different grinds. The one I have heard most often is a convex grind on the top of the blade, transitioning to a relatively narrow band of hollow grind to the edge (grind A). This makes for a knife that needs minimal thinning over time/sharpenings but would shoulder medium-to-tall items away from the blade really well. I have also, though less frequently, heard people describe knives with the opposite grind- where the food would first come in contact with a thin convex, then separate from the blade due to a gentle hollow grind through the middle of the blade going up to the spine (grind B). This too, in theory, would make a blade that releases food quite well and have slightly more resistance to chipping, but would not be quite as thin behind the edge after repeated sharpenings.

Which grind do you want us to do on this knife? A or B? Any thoughts on the topic in general? Thoughts from using knives of these geometries?

~Luke

Hi Luke, good question about the 'S' grind. I asked the very same question a short while ago here: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/20304-What-exactly-is-an-S-grind

You're right that people often call both grinds A and B an 'S' grind but from the answers given to my question, it looks like the most common usage on KKF of 'S' grind is your grind B example. I understand that Ian Rogers (Haburn knives) uses grind A quite frequently.
 
I took the knife back to the grinder and changed the profile around quite a bit. It's more like a sujihiki (42mm deep at the heel) and I made the knife more triangular for knuckle clearance and then sleeked up the tip quite a bit more so it's not so droopy looking. Thoughts?

DSC_0058.JPG


This sleeker design will look really sexy with that cokebottle hidden-tang handle. This will get the S-grind that we discussed as option B.

~Luke
 
I say do what you do. You guys are at the top of your game.
 
I'm aware it's been taken care of but I was just exchanging some emails with a Japanese maker and made a really quick exaggerated sketch to show the basic look of a compound grind:
Oji1iAN.png


As another user posted...it's not really the grind concept alone that makes it work; the execution of the convex kireba (bevel) in particular can be somewhat nuanced and hard to nail down. I'm sure you guys can work it out.
 
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