Is freehand sharpening worth it?

I have been using a Spyderco Triangle Sharpmaker with excellent results. Since I am getting such good results is there any good reason to take the time to learn freehand sharpening? The only thing I can think of is for situations where the sharpmaker isn't an option. I recently had to order some more sharpmaker stones to replace some that I broke. So right now I can only use the sharpmaker with the fine stones until the medium stones get here. Freehand stones strike me as being more resilient than the ceramic stones for the sharpmaker. Of course it would also be nice to be able to sharpen "the old fashioned" way. Nothing like doing it your self instead of relying on modern gadgets.

Jennifer

Greetings!

Short answer is yes.

If you use Japanese knives then they are pretty much the only way to sharpen where you will be able to maintain the original geometry.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/5656-Asymmetry-%E2%80%93-The-REAL-DEAL

How sure are you those results are so good? How does it address asymmetry of the knife or the geometry behind the edge over time? Forgive me for asking but I have no experience with jigs or angle guided systems.

Hell yeah, for some very good reasons: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/19335-Why-hand-sharpen-How-do-the-alternatives-work

ThEoRy said:

How sure are you those results are so good? How does it address asymmetry of the knife or the geometry behind the edge over time? Forgive me for asking but I have no experience with jigs or angle guided systems.

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I can only judge based on performance. The 40 degree (20 on each side) setting has worked great so far. It has worked out on kitchen knives and pocket knives. I can get the knives crazy sharp. When the knife is good and sharp like that it cuts food like it should. I have only had the sharpmaker for a few months, so I don't know how it will do over time. It does have a 30 degree (15 on each side) setting for back beveling.

One thing's for sure; the sharpmaker is easy to use with a little practice.

chinacats said:

Greetings!

Short answer is yes.

If you use Japanese knives then they are pretty much the only way to sharpen where you will be able to maintain the original geometry.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/5656-Asymmetry-%E2%80%93-The-REAL-DEAL

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My main experience is with western knives. The only Japanese knives I have used are a couple of cheap Santoku. I used those just like I would a western chefs knife. I gather that they aren't supposed to be used that way. Besides those my only other experience with Asian knives is a Dexter Russel cleaver that came in the mail today.

If the short answer is yes; what's the long answer?

The sharpmaker is a one size fits all approach that on the whole will give you a good edge with a little practice. It does however constrain you to that one size.

Freehand gives you a greater ability to experiment and match the edge to the intended purpose. Also after repeated sharpenings the edge will get thicker and stones give you the ability to correct for this matching the original geometry, or adjusting it for improved performance. The 15 dps back bevel isn't low enough to do this with kitchen knives.

If you compare a train to a car, a train can only go to certain places but will get you pretty close to where you want to be without much effort. A car can get you exactly where you want to be, but you need to learn to drive and until you know the route you might get lost and end up further away.

So it depends if you're happy being close enough, or want to learn a new skill that has the potential to get your edges right where you want them to be.

Thanks everyone for the replies. Looks like I will have to get a set of stones and a cheap(ish) knife to practice with. Any recommendations for relatively cheap stones and cheap knives to practice on? Low maintenance stones would be my preferred option. For now I would like to avoid stones that require water or oil. For the knives, would any old crap knife from the drawer be ok?

Thanks

Jennifer

purplemutant said:

Thanks everyone for the replies. Looks like I will have to get a set of stones and a cheap(ish) knife to practice with. Any recommendations for relatively cheap stones and cheap knives to practice on? Low maintenance stones would be my preferred option. For now I would like to avoid stones that require water or oil. For the knives, would any old crap knife from the drawer be ok?

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Hmm… I can understand why you don’t want to practice on your better knives, but be warned that cheap (stainless) knives can be a real pain to sharpen. That will most likely lead to frustration (I’ve been there :O), so if you want to save your good knives make sure that the one you are practicing on is of some quality – an old carbon steel knife would be a good choice. In other words, “any old crap knife from the drawer” is not necessarily a good idea.

In many ways it’s the same with stones. To cheap stones will lead to frustration. I started out with some real crappy no-name ones and was about to give up, but fortunately decided to buy a decent (well actually more than decent) stone – now, that made a world of difference. You won’t find a decent stone that will not need some water, but it can be splash and go (means you don’t have to soak it). If I were you I would buy a good middle grid splash and go stone and start from there. That way you can always add more stones as the need arises.

idemhj said:

If I were you I would buy a good middle grid splash and go stone and start from there. That way you can always add more stones as the need arises.

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Since I know very little about stones; do you have any recommendations? For the knife would a cheap old hickory butcher knife work? Something like this.

http://ontarioknife.com/cutlery/old-hickory/7-7-butcher-knife-detail

What's the best way to dull a knife to practice sharpening?

The steel in that knife is spot on. The shape of the blade may be a bit of a challenge, but I would go for it.

With regard to stones, I don’t have all that much experience with different makes, so I may not be the best to answer. I use Naniwa Choseras and like them, but they are expensive. A lot of people recommend Kings (IIRC they can be used as splash and go, but will benefit from a short soak).

I have Kings, they work well enough and are less expensive than better stones.

purplemutant said:

What's the best way to dull a knife to practice sharpening?

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No need to dull one artificially. If you paint the edge with a waterproof sharpie it will give you enough feedback about your angles and how much steel you have removed. Alternatively, offer to sharpen knives for colleagues and friends. After you have watched the Jon Broida videos and the Korin videos on youtube you will know more about sharpening than 99% of people you see. Maybe even more than 99% of hobby and even professional cooks. After that it all boils down to practice.

One thing that has been a great help for me: I fashioned a little triangle made of balsawood with my preferred angle that I can set on the stone and lay the bladeface on to find the absolutely correct angle (none of that stacking coin nonsense). When I have found it, I "lock" my wrist and remove the balsawood template and start sharpening. Use the template to recheck your angle frequently to see whether you tend to drift lower or higher with your angle. that can be corrected with the position of your hand on your blade.

For stones, this is a good starting point that will serve your needs for the foreseeable future You may want to fine tune it somewhere along the way but you won't have to:

http://www.japaneseknifesharpenings...ore-Set-of-Sharpening-Stones-p/set1dmcore.htm

A combo stone from King is a less expensive starting point, though not as versatile. You'll be adding to it soon.

Another 3 stone set, this one from Japanese Knife Imports gets a lot of love here and is what I've gravitated to. http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/sharpening-supplies/ara-toishi/gesshin-stone-set.html

Add a flattening stone to any of these and you'll have the sharpest knives in your zip code.

For knives to learn on, I'm not big on learning on cheap then moving to good. You won't kill a knife, destroy it, ruin it, or otherwise mess it up by sharpening it. Yes you will get some scuff marks, yes the edge may not be perfect, but you'll work through these and learn what you're doing. And if you do get over your head there are several on this forum that will professionally un-mess it up.

All that said, if you want to start with training wheels the cleaver from the link you posted would be better starting point. No curves. And everybody needs at least one clever. The butcher knife you posted is one long curve and would be more difficult to learn with. You might also look on the bay for "vintage forgecraft knives" or "vintage carbon knives".

To dull a knife simply let a relative use it. :angel2:

Nope, it does not. Total waste of time and space. RUN!!!

Thanks everyone for the info. I may go with the Dave Martell set or king stones. How about these two king stones?

http://korin.com/King-Medium-Grain-Sharpening-Stone-with-Base-1000-Grit?sc=27&category=280107

http://korin.com/King-Medium-Grain-Sharpening-Stone-with-Base-1000-Grit?sc=27&category=280107

Another thought is this king combo stone

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001DT1X9O/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Any benefits of individual stones VS combo stones?

mhpr262 said:

One thing that has been a great help for me: I fashioned a little triangle made of balsawood with my preferred angle that I can set on the stone and lay the bladeface on to find the absolutely correct angle (none of that stacking coin nonsense). When I have found it, I "lock" my wrist and remove the balsawood template and start sharpening. Use the template to recheck your angle frequently to see whether you tend to drift lower or higher with your angle. that can be corrected with the position of your hand on your blade.

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That's a brilliant idea! One of my concerns was keeping the correct angle.

Good old King 1000/6000 combo waterstone will get you a good edge without too much work. Watch the Jon Broida/Japanese Knife Imports videos on youtube to get you started. Be warned you could be headed into a whole new hobby of sharpening and start feeling the need to acquire several different brands and grits of waterstones. Price ranges from very affordable to sky is the limit! Good luck on your journey.

Castalia said:

Good old King 1000/6000 combo waterstone will get you a good edge without too much work. Watch the Jon Broida/Japanese Knife Imports videos on youtube to get you started. Be warned you could be headed into a whole new hobby of sharpening and start feeling the need to acquire several different brands and grits of waterstones. Price ranges from very affordable to sky is the limit! Good luck on your journey.

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The king combo stone is cheap enough. So it looks like I will be getting that to start with. Thanks everyone for all the great advice.

For a practice knife I remembered that my mom has a 6 inch Henckels that was "lovingly cared for". :lol2: That knife has been in the sink, in the dishwasher, "sharpened" with a pull though knife sharpener, and even has a melt mark on the handle where it was set down on something hot. All the things you aren't supposed to do with knives my mom manages to do. :laugh: The knife isn't really in usable condition at this point. So it would give me something good to practice on. I will probably also get an old hickory cleaver. If nothing else it would a good replacement for my cleaver from the Ronco Six Star knife set. Yea yea I know...The set was cheap and I was stupid. :laugh:

I got rid of my moms Wusthof sharpener to make sure she didn't damage any other knives. I wish I had kept that. It would have been nice to post some pictures showing all the nicks and cut marks from her aggressive use.

I’m a nob in sharpening so I can only indicate my way. I’m trying to avoid stones flattering so I go with Spyderco 302 medium, fine and 306 ultrafine. No wear then no need to make them flat. The ultrafine is so slow that you can practice with an almost sharp knife. You clean them with soap and water or a pencil eraser. For really dull knife add a rough stone.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias=sporting&field-keywords=spyderco 302

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...06,sporting,303&rh=n:3375251,k:spyderco+306uf

Bolek said:

I’m a nob in sharpening so I can only indicate my way. I’m trying to avoid stones flattering so I go with Spyderco 302 medium, fine and 306 ultrafine. No wear then no need to make them flat. The ultrafine is so slow that you can practice with an almost sharp knife. You clean them with soap and water or a pencil eraser. For really dull knife add a rough stone.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias=sporting&field-keywords=spyderco 302

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...06,sporting,303&rh=n:3375251,k:spyderco+306uf

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Thanks for the suggestion. I think I am going to go with the king 1000/6000 combo stone. The spyderco stones are a little expensive. For now I want to go for something good but cheaper. The king stones seem to fit the bill.

purplemutant said:

I think I am going to go with the king 1000/6000 combo stone....

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My first water stone....has been semi retired to the Baja get away home. In the last 12 months I've probably used that stone more than any others. It's a really good stone and can handle pretty much all knife and stone related issues EXCEPT 'new black OCD stone lust', which, unfortunately is a very common affliction on this forum.
;>

the 1/6k stones are really good to learn on, but you have to also keep them FLAT, they dish very easily from what I have seen

CoqaVin said:

the 1/6k stones are really good to learn on, but you have to also keep them FLAT, they dish very easily from what I have seen

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+1, for me it was to the point of having to do it between sessions. Easy enough, just pay attention as you go and figure out the pencil on stone trick to see how flat you are keeping it. The King is actually good for beginners as it will force you to use the whole stone to try and keep it flat. Best of luck. I'm sure you will do fine.

I have seen some serious dishing on a 1/6k, you need to take care of the issue, every time you hit the stone, or it will just end up looking like a banana

Ok I just ordered the king 1000/6000 combo stone. I also ordered an old hickory cleaver and paring knife. Looking at the review on one of the old hickory paring knives; someone was complaining about the sharpness. I don't expect an inexpensive knife to come crazy sharp from the factory. In this case a knife that is less than razor sharp is a good thing. It would give me something to start practicing on. A 3 and 1/4 inch carbon steel paring knife should be good to practice with. Once I get the hang of it I will have a nice replacement for the cheap "good cook" paring knife from the grocery store.

This is the paring knife I ordered

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FKGGXU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I can't wait for my stuff to get here so I can start learning how to properly sharpen knives :happy1: :knife:

Do you have a way to flatten the stone? If not, pick up a granite floor tile and 150-300 grit wet/dry automotive sandpaper, total less than $10.

As others mentioned, check out Jon's knife sharpening playlist on YouTube.

Have fun!

some really good tips were given here...

mhpr262 said:

Alternatively, offer to sharpen knives for colleagues and friends. After you have watched the Jon Broida videos and the Korin videos on youtube you will know more about sharpening than 99% of people you see. Maybe even more than 99% of hobby and even professional cooks. After that it all boils down to practice.

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Exactly what I did when I started freehanding 2 weeks ago. Until then I already sharpened 8 knives. Still waiting to buy better stones and get some more practice before I will tackle my Japanese knives.
But these cheap stainless knives are really hard to sharpen, proper steel is so much easier judging from my previous EP experience.

mhpr262 said:

One thing that has been a great help for me: I fashioned a little triangle made of balsawood with my preferred angle that I can set on the stone and lay the bladeface on to find the absolutely correct angle (none of that stacking coin nonsense). When I have found it, I "lock" my wrist and remove the balsawood template and start sharpening. Use the template to recheck your angle frequently to see whether you tend to drift lower or higher with your angle. that can be corrected with the position of your hand on your blade.

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This is also the thing I am planning to do!

johnstoc said:

Do you have a way to flatten the stone? If not, pick up a granite floor tile and 150-300 grit wet/dry automotive sandpaper, total less than $10.

As others mentioned, check out Jon's knife sharpening playlist on YouTube.

Have fun!

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Thanks for the info. I hadn't thought about stone flattening.

The only drawback to a King combination stone is that the coarse side dishes quickly. I have a set of three (800, 1000, and 1200) King stones I got a couple decades ago, and they get used to hold up my other stones to the correct height. Pretty much useless for sharpening woodworking tools as mine were inherited and quite dull, I got tired of spending more time flattening than I did sharpening.

The 6k is a different animal, cuts very quickly and does not wear very fast. No mud to speak of, but puts a good polish on the bevel quite quickly. Very nice stone, especially for the price.

The fast wearing of the coarse stone is much less of a problem with knives, so the King combo stone will work very well for you. They do cut quickly and cleanly -- just remember to use very light pressure and you will be fine.

I don't think I would use the Spyderco "stones" for Japanese knives. Stones that require high pressure can cause micro-cracking issues with very hard steel. Waterstones work much better.

Peter

psfred said:

I don't think I would use the Spyderco "stones" for Japanese knives. Stones that require high pressure can cause micro-cracking issues with very hard steel. Waterstones work much better.

Peter

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Waterstones work much better.
Yes but I do not know how to make them flat. Morover ther is no contamination risk of the higher grit ceramic by the lover grit one.
Why does Spyderco "stones" require pressure higher than the pressure aplied on waterstones ?