Knives For Butchery

So I'm absolutely adoring my Tojiro DP. Great, great knives. I dealt with skinning fish, doing a fine dice of mushrooms and garlic, took down some large greens, and got myself some lemons all prepped. That being said, I have some work that still needs to be done, and I've realized that I am very leery of putting my gyuto too near food with bones (like whole chickens or steaks with bones or the eventual forequarters of cow and beef I intend to work on in the coming years with my dad), so I'm wanting to get maybe one or two blades to get the job done.

So here's the questionnaire:


LOCATION
What country are you in? USA



KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)? Boning knife and maybe a deba

Are you right or left handed? Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle? I've never tried a Japanese handle.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)? I'm working with a 210 gyuto, so I know I'm comfortable with knives that size or so. I've not tried out larger ones, but am willing to give them a shot. I just have small hands with long fingers.

Do you require a stainless knife? Not completely stain free but not something that will pit, stain, and rust within seconds of use.

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? Per knife, I really don't want to go past $200. I might go to $250 if there really was a must buy that someone could convince me that going over budget would be worth it.



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment? Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? Cutting down poultry and beef, breaking poultry bones.

What knife, if any, are you replacing? Not replacing

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? Pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? I try to stay away from chop and walking the knife. The others are pretty common, although I'm working my hardest to keep to push cut, draw, and slice

What improvements do you want from your current knife? Not replacing, so I'd like something that holds a good edge, doesn't stain horribly, and is comfortable to hold.



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? For me, it's wood or a synthetic if need be.

Do you sharpen your own knives? I have not been taught yet.

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? Yeah, I really would

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? I am, so if you suggest something, make sure that it's ok for these suggestions and my DP knives I already have.



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

Boning knife yes, deba probably not so much for your intended use. Western devs would be a better candidate.

Several of the vendors on this site sell a "beginners set" of waterstone that will work just fine with with your Tojiro and any butcher knives you buy. Generally have a coarse (500 or so) grit stone, a 1000 or 1200 grit stone, and a Suehiro Rika 5000 grit stone. About $100 I think.

My personal main sharpening "progression" is a 700 grit Bester if needed (usually not), a 1200 grit Bester to sharpen, a synthetic blue aoto to start polishing, a 6000 grit King stone to polish, and then a Kitayama 8000 grit to finish, with a final strop on green chromium oxide 0.5 micron paste on a piece of wood. I stop with the aoto for western knives as they seem to cut the best there, and some people would stop with the 1200 grit stone and just strop on the chromium oxide to finish, depends on how you like your knives to work.

Something in the 1000 to 1200 range and something in the 4000 to 6000 range will work fine for you, at least to start. There are combination stones out there with 1000 grit on one side and 4000 or 6000 on the other, and those will work fine for your Tojiro. Might not be a perfect combination for a butcher knife though.

I don't have specific knife recommendations, but for actual butchering you will need a knife with an edge that will tolerate bone contact, and you may have to give up the very hard steel knives that hold an edge forever in favor of a knife that needs more sharpening but won't chip when you hit bones. Carbon steel knives with decent hardenss, as in vintage ForgeCraft, Old Hickory, or Chicago Cutlery will fit the bill here, as they were designed specifically for butchering and meatpacking. Old Hickory is probably still good, but nothing made by Chicago Cutlery since about 1985 is worth a hoot, they are all stainless made in China. Older Chicago Cutlery (with style numbers stamped on the handles) are OK, although they don't hold a great edge in the stainless versions. The carbon steel ones are great. Those carbon steel knives will take a very fine edge, and the better ones will hold it quite a while. They can be "revived" with a steel fairly well, and are easy to sharpen. They will not chip when they run into bones, although they may lose some sharpness. My brother's father in law made his living using Chicago Cutlery carbon steel knives in a meat packing plant, for instance.

I'm sure someone else with more experience with more modern knives will speak up, hopefully with some advise on the form of knife you should be using to butcher quarters of an animal -- this is very much different that de-boning a roast, etc. There may and may not be equivalent Japanese knives to a standard profile butcher or deboning knife.

Peter

Tojiro Gokujo.

Thanks, ThEoRy. Any thoughts of something for the bones? Like a western deba?

Check out A carbon Murphy boning knife, for all the reasons laid out by psfred.

https://www.rmurphyknives.com/cgi-b...569&ss_parm=A3e7bcf7d65d0769728416f559d33203c

For a western Deba look at Suisin carbon at Korin.

http://korin.com/Suisin-High-Carbon-Steel-Yo-Deba?sc=27&category=280062

Stones from Japanese knife sharpening.

http://www.japaneseknifesharpenings...ore-Set-of-Sharpening-Stones-p/set1dmcore.htm

My Itinomonn wa butcher from Maxim ain't scared of nothin'.

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-kurouchi-170mm-wa-butcher/

Harner, or on the other end of the spectrum, a Victorinox Rosewood. Victorinox makes a very good knife for these purposes.

You could get a 240mm Tojiro Yo deba and the Gokujo for about $240.

Chifunda said:

My Itinomonn wa butcher from Maxim ain't scared of nothin'.

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-kurouchi-170mm-wa-butcher/

Click to expand...

Took it to the woods to get us a Xmas tree. Problem was that the trees would lose their needles as soon as I'd approach them with the wa-butcher, scared the craps out of them...

could still trim santa's beard effortless afterwards.

riba said:

Took it to the woods to get us a Xmas tree. Problem was that the trees would lose their needles as soon as I'd approach them with the wa-butcher, scared the craps out of them...

Click to expand...

scared the needles right off of them, wimpy trees

And pushcut wrapping paper...

riba you are really enticing me to get one now instead of a 150mm petty

I would call up Michael Rader and order one of these…

I suspect you will need different knives for prepping chickens and for large animal butchering.

There is a reason for both shapes of butcher knives --- the long semi-pointed on in the above post and the one with a slightly upturned tip and a rounded sharp edge. You need the pointed one for disjointing, I think, and the blunt ended on for cutting large sections of meat, as you will be if you are indeed butchering a quarter of a steer. For those who are not familiar with doing this, the front quarter is about 300 lbs after quartering and the leg bones are about the size of a medium guys wrist.

Hogs are not so large -- my buddies who butcher hogs regularly tried a cow once, then decided they'd take the cattle to the fellow down the road who butchers them on a regular basis. He has a hoist, the necessary stainless steel counters, and refrigerated storage large enough to hang a carcass for a week, none of which my friends can do in the garage. A skinned and gutted carcass weighs in between 1200 and 1500 lbs before de-boning, it's beyond what you want to do without the proper equipment.

I have a Korean "cow knife" gyuto -- thicker than a Japanese gyuto, much more belly, and quite heavy -- that is called a "cow knife" because that is what is used to butcher cows in Korea. They turn up on eBay periodically, quite inexpensive, and VERY rough as they are hand forged form old car springs and retired railroad rails. Mine has the saw marks down the back where it was sawn from stock, most likely used automobile or truck springs. That steel is usually 51200, and makes superb knives. Mine is chewing up my old cutting board, even with light use it slices into the edge grain of the board. Takes an amazing edge and seems to be quite robust, although I've not tried to butcher a cow with it yet.

Peter

If I understood correctly you are also looking for a knife that could go through the bones - for that purpose have a look at Itinomonn butcher - that knife has some serious thickness and really steep bevel angles - going through chicken bones was easy with it (I did that when I used to own it).