Help choosing a 210mm workhorse Gyuto...

LOCATION
What country are you in? - United States

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)? – Gyuto (Workhorse)

Are you right or left handed? – Right handed.

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle? – I am used to a western handle, but am open to a Wa-handle.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)? – 210mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no) – No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? - ~ $225

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment? – I am an at-home cook, although I do occasionally help out some friends with their catering business.

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.) – I tend to use a gyuto/chef’s knife for everything; slicing & chopping vegetables, mincing herbs & garlic, cutting up fruit (Slicing apples, sectioning grapefruit/oranges, etc.), slicing cooked proteins, and cutting the occasional sandwich or pizza.

What knife, if any, are you replacing? – Victorinox & Wusthof

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.) – Pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.) – I use a wide variety of cuts depending upon the application, although I typically do not rock-chop, aside from mincing herbs.

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.) Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)? – I am disappointed with the blade thickness, profile, geometry, edge retention, and edge stability of the European knives I have been using.

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)? – I tend to like medium to medium-heavyweight knives, with slightly daintier handles (I love the feel of the factory Hiromoto and Sabatier Nogent handles), as I find this feels best in my hands.

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)? – I am looking for a sturdy workhorse knife which can handle the widely varied food prep duties I listed above without fear of catastrophically chipping, or otherwise damaging a super-delicate edge. Whilst I am not afraid of caring for a carbon knife, I do often cut acidic ingredients which are served raw, and do not want to transfer any oxidation or metallic flavors to the food; so if choosing carbon low-reactivity would be an issue. Ease of sharpening is always nice.

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)? – I like to maintain a ~ 5K edge on my chef knives, and would like to be able to keep this edge for several days to a week in a home kitchen being used for an average of 1-2 meals a day. I typically strop on bare leather between trips to the stones.

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.) – I use an end-grain maple cutting board.

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.) – Yes, and I actually rather enjoy it. I find it very relaxing, and have a collection of sharpening equipment ranging from a set of Shapton Pros from 320-8000 grit, some diamond plates, various stropping supplies, and a growing collection of natural stones (Belgian & Arkansas).

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.) – See above.

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.) – See above.

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

I am very passionate about cooking, and whilst I have always been able to prepare food with my German-pattern chef’s knives, I would like to treat myself to a better tool for the tasks I perform. I would like a knife that is fairly sturdy that I don’t have to worry about damaging during my normal usage, but is ground more deftly from better quality steel than what I have been using. I am not adverse to carbon, quite the opposite, but I have never owned a carbon steel knife before, and am unsure if something like Aogami Super would have a problem with reactivity on acidic foods – like citrus fruits – which I do often prepare. I have handled and used a Hiromoto Ginsan, which I sharpened for a friend, and really enjoyed working with this knife. Compared with my European knives, it was a wonderful experience, and I really regretted that it wasn’t mine.

I have done some research, and compiled a list of a few that look as if they might meet my requirements:

1. JCK Kagayaki CarboNext
2. JCK Kagayaki Aogami #2 Clad-Series
3. Hiromoto Aogami Super (I found a new-old-stock one in the length I’m looking for.)
4. Kikuichi TKC Performance
5. Hattori FH VG-10 Forum Special
6. Akifusa SRS-15 Powdered Metal
7. Yoshikane SKD Hand Hammered
8. Anryu Aogami #2 Hand Hammered

I would appreciate the benefit of your experience in learning if any of the above – or some other knife not listed – would meet my situation outlined above. I am kind of leaning towards the Hiromoto AS, considering my previous experience with the Ginsan version, but am unsure if it would react with acidic foods or possibly be more chip-prone than some of the others.

Thank you very much for your time! I will look forward to reading your replies…

- Steampunk

if you're leaning towards the hiromoto, i'd say to just go for it because it's a bloody good knife for the money. aogami super isn't super chippy and the knife is stainless clad so you only get patina on the edge, which is kinda cool looking. also, the steel is meant to be more wear resistant compared to regular white #2 anyway.

if you want an edge that lasts, go for the akifusa or yoshikane. generally speaking, i much prefer cutting with and caring for carbon knives over scritchy scratchy stainless so i'd rather get the hiromoto out of all your options. it's probably also quite cheap in comparison. i also have this thing where i don't really like house brand knives but i've only heard good things about JCK's kagayaki line.

Welcome to the forums.

Of the knives you are considering, the Hiromoto AS is the one I'd choose, given your criteria, and especially since you have handled a similar Hiromoto and liked it. The core steel is not highly reactive and will take a protective patina quickly. And, if you find you don't care for it for some reason, it will be easy to resell.

Rick

Welcome Steampunk!

Of those on your list I would suggest the Akifusa. (I would personally choose the JKI Gesshin Kagero which is essentially the same knife with a few performance tweaks--and comes with a case). It fits most of your requirements (the handle is a bit smaller which is why mine is being rehandled). The only thing that may annoy you is that you won't have to sharpen it very often as the edge retention is amazing. Fit and finish is top notch.

Kagero.

Thank you very much for your welcome to the forum, and the great advice!

So far, Hiromoto AS and Gesshin [Akifusa] Kagero are two for two, with a credible mention of the JCK Kagayaki line. Both appeal for different reasons; the Hiromoto for emotional ones (I really bonded with my friend's Ginsan, plus the romance of carbon, and the fact that it would probably play nicer with my favorite Belgian Blue Whetstone.), the Kagero for more practical reasons (The fit & finish and grind both look superb! Plus it's stainless, which does give some piece of mind with acidic foods.).

Having handled the Hiromoto Ginsan, the two questions in my head were "Can I mince garlic/herbs with a blade this thin using the traditional French cross-chopping/rocking motion?" [I have not tried this with a Gyuto before.] and "Would the AS version give my morning plate of freshly sliced fruit an iron-esque taste?" [even with a patina]... Both are probably common questions for newbies diving into J-Knives for the first time, and both may prove to be groundless concerns that make experienced members cringe (For which I apologize.), but they still give me pause. Any help in allaying them would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks again... Looking forward to seeing how this thread progresses. :cool2:

- Steampunk

Yes, you can (and should be able to) rock chop with a gyuto (I think if your edge can't stand up to this, your sharpening needs work. I've never understood wanting a gossamer-fine edge on a knife that is supposed to be an all-rounder, personally.). One man's opinion of course.

No, a Hiromoto AS will not taint your fruit. In my experience, only soft-iron (which is generally far more reactive than the core steel) clad carbon knives taint food. The AS hagane is fairly unreactive, and even more so when it takes a decent patina.

Tim,

Thank you very much for allaying my fears! I really appreciate your candor and patience in answering my questions... This helps greatly! Ta for that...

- Steampunk

My workhorse is the teruyasu fujiwara nashiji 210. Cant imagine a better value. I see that you use Arkansas stones. I gave up on mind but it could have been the low quality.
Eventually, i measured the density and saw that it fell short. Nats are tricky.
My BBW seems to be working nicely. Curious as to how others are using this stone with j.knives. New here. Feel free to re-direct to where the BBW might be discussed for kitchen knives.
Thx.Bill

I would suggest that the Belgium blues used for razors may be alright for finishing single bevel knives though I can't recall anyone here using one. I would think a good razor stone would be too hard and too fine for most knives.

Best bet may be a new thread in the sharpening subforum.

Cheers!

wphill said:

My workhorse is the teruyasu fujiwara nashiji 210. Cant imagine a better value. I see that you use Arkansas stones. I gave up on mind but it could have been the low quality.
Eventually, i measured the density and saw that it fell short. Nats are tricky.
My BBW seems to be working nicely. Curious as to how others are using this stone with j.knives. New here. Feel free to re-direct to where the BBW might be discussed for kitchen knives.
Thx.Bill

Click to expand...

Hi Bill,

Thank you for the recommendation! I have been eying these, too, and the pricing doesn't look bad if purchased directly from the maker in Japan... Definitely one to consider.

As for the sharpening gear, I am quite fond of my natural stones... Arkansas novoculite is not very effective in my experience on knives above about 56-57 HRC, but on softer European knives or straight razors, prepared properly, used with patience, and the right technique, they can create some wonderful edges. Mine are from Dan's, and are 1st quality stones.

My BBW is my favorite, though. I have used it on several of my friend's J-Knives, and it only disagreed with one; the Hiromoto Ginsan, which was a bit finicky and only seemed to want to finish down with light edge trailing strokes on my Shaptons but developed a very nice edge in the end. The garnets in the stone work surprisingly well on harder, more wear-resistant steels (Especially with a thick slurry.); sometimes better than my Shapton Pros. I love the feedback, and edges I get off of this stone. There are a handful of people using them on J-Knives, but not many. The most educated users of these stones are straight-razor enthusiasts, and you can learn more about the techniques they have developed on websites like Badger & Blade and The Coticule Vault. Their techniques can be easily applied to knives. There is a Belgian gentleman who uses his vintage Les Latneuses vein Coticule to sharpen his personal Moritaka AS knives, and has a blog entry on the subject. He is a professional sharpener, so I do not know if I can link to it directly, but with the information given you should be able to find it on your own....

Hopefully this helps, and thanks again for the tip on the Teruyasu...

- Steampunk

Steampunk,

With the yen as weak as it is, a real bargain. To me this feels like a delicate issue since it hurts the domestic distributors. I don't feel
half badly because most of my purchases are domestic. At least, that's my rationale. You sound as if you have been using and sharpening
j.knives for quite a while. Back to the BBW...I hear different preferences for the thickeness of the slurry. One source prefers it light.
HIs reason is that the garnets riding higher will dull the edge of the cutting bevel. Then again, when thinning..sounds like a great
idea to have thick. I've been posting lately and with limited sleep I'm forgetting what and where I've posted on the matter. Could be that
I started a post under sharpening sub forum. Good to get your feedback. I'm encouraged to stay with the BBW, though my latest thought
is to progress from bbw with slurry, to shapton glass 4k, and then to bbw with soapy water. At least with the SG I can see when it's cutting.
Of course, as you point out, steels are different. Feel free to Pm me. I have some more info on the bbw from a razor forum member at
blades
Bill

Hi Bill,

I appreciate your consideration for the distributors in the US; I try to support local businesses whenever I can as well... I have several friends with Japanese knives; Suisin Inox, Tojiro DP, Shun, Hiromoto Ginsan, etc... No carbon, unfortunately; hence my lack of experience in this area. I have spent more time sharpening them than I have using them, alas, but what experience I have gained has told me that it's time to upgrade.

Regarding the BBW... If I'm doing heavier correction with this stone, the technique that I use is what straight razor users refer to as 'Dilucot'. I start with a relatively thick slurry on the surface of the stone which I start with a BBW offcut, and gradually add water as I work to slowly thin the slurry until I'm finishing on water alone. This allows the stone to be more aggressive initially, whilst gradually diluting the effects of the slurry dulling until you finish with a crisp bevel apex. That said, some steels seem to be more sensitive to slurry dulling than others (A few finish just fine with slurry.), but most still get a little bit crisper/finer finishing on water alone. If I'm just touching up the edge, I won't bother with a slurry, and treat it as a splash & go.

I would definitely continue playing with your BBW... They're lovely stones, and fun to experiment with. I would be interested to see what you think of the BBW + SG 4K pyramid progression. It'll depend upon the steel, but I'll be interested to see how well the BBW changes the shape of the scratch pattern left behind a man-made stone like the Shapton 4K without slurry. Without slurry BBW's aren't super fast, and if you spend enough time on them they will start to self-slurry, so you'll probably have to periodically refresh the water on the surface of the stone to achieve the results you're looking for. I would be interested to hear if you find it delivers a crisper edge than just a dilucot, whilst still giving you that Belgian smoothness.

- Steampunk