Wide bevel gyuto, Kono?

I am looking for wide bevel gyuto that is not Heiji or Kagekiyo. First is because I already have a Heiji knife and second is out of my price range.
Konosuke Fujiyama is priced about right. However, I see different lines, white 1 & 2 and Blue 1 & 2. What is the difference beside steel? Any other suggestion in that price range?

Tesshu from Aframes

glestain said:

Tesshu from Aframes

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Not dramatically wide bevel, just finished that way. Don't let that stop you from buying one, they are badass even low cost aside.

Kochi?

This is the second time in recent weeks Ive suggested this knife...But so far the feedback is pretty good and it seems like a great deal on a nice knife+nice handle
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...ayuki-Syousin-Sakura-240mm-Gyuto-now-in-stock
review is here
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...yuto-sanmai-gyuto-and-kiritsuke-ryoba-preview
FWIW I found the regular fujiyamas to have a little too much belly for my taste. The Funayuki profile looks nice. Its out of stock though.

labor of love said:

This is the second time in recent weeks Ive suggested this knife...But so far the feedback is pretty good and it seems like a great deal on a nice knife+nice handle
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...ayuki-Syousin-Sakura-240mm-Gyuto-now-in-stock
review is here
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...yuto-sanmai-gyuto-and-kiritsuke-ryoba-preview
FWIW I found the regular fujiyamas to have a little too much belly for my taste. The Funayuki profile looks nice. Its out of stock though.

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Doh! I just used that knife and it was an excellent performer, but thought that may have been out of the pricerange? Kochi is roughly $100 less. Both are really good knives and I would recommend either...or both maybe?

I had a white #2 steel kono and it was as nearly pronounced wide bevel as the blue and ginsan konosukes I had. What about a mizuno

Thanks all. Non of the suggestions really fancy me, besides may be Sakai Takayuki, but its a bit pricy.
Any input on differences between Fujiyamas?

Sure thing Ruso. I own two handfuls of Konosuke Fujiyama and Honyaki gyutos. While I don't own a W2, I own a few different flavors of W1, B2 and a Togo Reigo Fujiyama. There are real differences between the lines of knives beyond steel, though the smith's treatment of said steel shouldn't be overlooked. The Fujiyama smith's treatment of every flavor of steel is absolutely sublime, but for me, the W1 is something very special. Butter on the stones and capable of an absurd edge. Beyond quality/treatment of steel, there are differences, which aren't just skin deep. My W1s are denser knives by a good margin. While slightly, slightly thicker, the weight difference in nonetheless pronounced vs. the lighter Blue variants. While the lines clearly do not share the same finish, the grinds are also different. The overall grind of the W1s (both regular and Damascus) seem more contoured and spheroid than the Blue. The grind on the Blue I own also seems to start slightly higher up the blade face than the W1, though only very modestly so. Indeed, the Blue knives seem to have a slightly flatter final grind grind than the White which makes them feel and perform more like a laser, though the W1s don't give up much in that respect and, as a result of the slightly thicker, more pronounced geometry, add a bit more versatility. Upon visual inspection, it might appear that both have a bit of a hollow ground aspect to the final grind, though I'd need to buy some calipers to verify that and suspect it might be optics. I could probably go on for a while about the knives, but it might be more helpful if you had any specific questions about either line.

I think you have to have your mind settled on what you consider a "wide bevel knife." The Heiji you have is rather like a two sided traditional single bevel knife. That is, a very real wide bevel on each side. Then there is Konosuke, with very shallow bevels, that are more cosmetic than functional.

The Kochi stainless clad Kurouchi knives have nice bevels as well.

Of course, if you really like wide bevel knives, particularly if you are right handed, you might consider the real thing, and get a usuba, miorishi, or funayuki. Not as hard to handle as you might think, and lots of fun to sharpen, especially with Jnats...

I used marc4pt0s 240. WOW! AMAZING. By far the best wide bevel fujiyama esque knife i have ever used. Maybe a bit better imho

ChipB, thank you very much for the comparison, very interesting. I actually though that Blue variants were the heavy ones How would you compare the "wide beveleness" of the both? Are they more on a cosmetic side, like designdog points out, or more of a true wide bevel?
I am looking for something like two single bevels glued together

If you look at the photos of the Sakai Takayuki pass around, you can easily see that the "wide bevel" is not a bevel at all, but a cosmetic finish. There is no physical bevel there, you can see it from the side and choil shots.

Not to say this is not a great knife. I am only pointing out the difference between it and what you see on a Heiji.

I got my first taste of this in 2008, when I ordered a Konosuke B1 from the maker. I was really disappointed, and rarely use the knife. Recently ordered a Fujiyama B2 funi/gyuto and returned it because, in my mind, the Fujiyamas were no better.

Just not my taste – I prefer Kato, TF, Heiji, Kochi, etc. Konosuke is not close to a Heiji; they are on two ends of the spectrum. I would never call Konosuke, or the Sakai Takayuki wide bevel knives...

The kono Fuji ginsan gyuto I had was light and the wide bevels were also like a single edge knife on both side. It was a great knife I might even pick up a 270

Both in aesthetic and in actual grind, I think the sharpener probably comes closer to a true wide bevel with a shoulder on the Blue. That said, the Togo Reigo Fujiyama I have is the best example of a wide, pronounced bevel (it's also the beefiest Fujiyama I own by a good margin). If a true wide, double bevel on a Konosuke knife that is more generally available is your aim, then the Blues are probably the better bet. As an aside, all the fujiyama knives I own are asymmetrically ground right to the edge for its worth. Also, will agree and disagree with Dog. On the togo Reigo and Blues there is a tall/wide bevel, but it is not a true flat final grind. I think there may be some confusion about the curvature of the final grind and the actual height of it here.

designdog said:

Then there is Konosuke, with very shallow bevels, that are more cosmetic than functional....

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what does functional mean? idk why but i feel like you just dissed my mom :eyebrow:

designdog said:

If you look at the photos of the Sakai Takayuki pass around, you can easily see that the "wide bevel" is not a bevel at all, but a cosmetic finish. There is no physical bevel there, you can see it from the side and choil shots.

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Err.. your are totally off on this topic. The shoulder is pronounced, in fact, sharp. So it is a true bevel from that point down.

schanop said:

Err.. your are totally off on this topic. The shoulder is pronounced, in fact, sharp. So it is a true bevel from that point down.

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Agreed, the knives in the passaround were true wide-bevel knives. I've owned Heiji and Kochi as well, they are all wide bevel.

Boom town:

I just thought to check and see if any of these were still around and lo and behold they are. Go to blue way Japan and organize results be price, high to low. Up towards the top will be a 210mm tall bevel blue steel gyuto. I owned the 240mm version and it was very good. The bevels are not cosmetic and ithad a crisp shinogi. It was not two single bevel edges however, the two bevels are hollow ground, most notably on the left.

just got a kono fuji white 210 from solidsnake03, totally digging it so far, i'm tending more towards thicker stiffer knives these days and the wide bevels are great.
if my conscience ever gets the better of me and i become a site supporter i'll be able to put up some pics...

Again, not saying one knife is a better performer than another. I was simply trying to prevent disappointment by the OP, a Heiji owner.

Try this test: pick up a traditional Japanese single bevel knife and trace the wide bevel down with your finger. Study the angle from the choil. Pick up a Heiji 240mm gyuto and do the same. Got to be less of a bevel, as there is one on each side, but it is most certainly there, and pronounced.

Now, try a Konosuke, or the Sakai, or any of these others. You call that a wide bevel? I call it cosmetic, because, in most cases, the actual bevel is not along the Shinogi, but where it makes the knife a more effective performer. To me, the top of the bevel and the Shinogi are the same, are very pronounced, and follow each other down the knife.

I own a lot of great knives that are not what I call wide bevel knives: Kato, Hide, Shigefusa, Mizuno, Watanabe. A genuine "wide bevel" gyuto is a rare object...

I have a Kono Fuji B2 gyuto. I think the bevels are more than cosmetic. I love the knife. I seem to see mostly very positive stuff about the Kono Fujis, over quite a long period of time, but opinions do vary a bit.

I'll be receiving the Takayuki passaround knives this week, so look forward to doing some direct comparisons!

The question is whether the [geometric] shinogi precisely fits the change in finish. Sometimes there is certainly a bevel change but it is blended a bit, and the transition of the finish (scratch direction or blasted kasumi area) is cosmetic to appear more controlled.

So all designdog was saying was that he thinks the real shinogi is not precisely matched by the change in scratch directions. I don't know about the Sakura, but the Fujiyama models seem to match his description to varying degrees.

toddnmd said:

I have a Kono Fuji B2 gyuto. I think the bevels are more than cosmetic. I love the knife. I seem to see mostly very positive stuff about the Kono Fujis, over quite a long period of time, but opinions do vary a bit.

I'll be receiving the Takayuki passaround knives this week, so look forward to doing some direct comparisons!

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Again, I am not denigrating the performance or desirability of any knife.

Here is a timely example: I just now received a Zakuri 240mm aogomi super gyuto from JKI. Just opened the box. From the photos, it certainly looks like a "wide bevel" knife. However, the actual main bevel is about ½ inch up from the edge, nowhere near the cosmetic Shinogi line. In fact, when you trace your finger from the top of the knife, along the side, all you feel is the change in surface texture when you reach the "Shinogi".

Does this make the knife better or worse? Well, to me, I am a bit disappointed, but will keep the knife anyway, as it has a good feel to it, a good edge, and it was reasonably priced. What bothers me more is the profile, which has a slight belly to it.

Before anyone gets down on me for bringing this up, just ask yourself: why are they doing it? I mean, Kato doesn't seem to think this is necessary, and his knives are outstanding. For years Mizuno offered a blue steel gyuto (which I have.) Then, recently, they took the exact same knife and put a cosmetic bevel on it. Probably not as bad as electronic exhaust sounds on some new cars at the Detroit auto show, but the same idea.

So. Caveat emptor. Just don't think its built like a Heiji...

designdog said:

Here is a timely example: I just now received a Zakuri 240mm aogomi super gyuto from JKI. Just opened the box. From the photos, it certainly looks like a "wide bevel" knife. However, the actual main bevel is about ½ inch up from the edge, nowhere near the cosmetic Shinogi line. In fact, when you trace your finger from the top of the knife, along the side, all you feel is the change in surface texture when you reach the "Shinogi"...

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Interesting. I have not seen the Zakuri gyuto but have refinished several others and while the top of the kasumi finished (bead blasted) section doesn't necessarily match the real shinogi, it's not far off.

All the pics' knives have had the bevel clarified directly on stones, so the top of the bevel is the top of the bevel with some slurry spillover.

This thread is like asking an automobile forum about differences in BMWs and getting bogged down in a discussion about the Hofmeister kink.

FWIW, Heiji knives don't have a "straight" bevel...it is actually slightly concave...it's still a wide bevel knife.