Very interested in dipping my toe into traditional Japanese knives.......

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Prize78

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Hi all,

I'm brand new to the forums and have been reading the threads a fair bit since i joined yesterday. I have had a few western style knives for a few years....Misono, Kanetsugu for example. But the more I lurk around these pages, the more I fancy a crack at traditional japanese. I sharpen my current blades with 1k, 3k, 6k, and 8k stones, which i seem to be getting better and better at.

So, what would you folks recommend as a starter blade in the traditional japanese style? I tend to use exclusively, a 210 or 240mm gyuto so would be after something of same or similar size. Now, i know that these things can get very pricey, but for my first one, i wouldn't like to go too mad money wise. Also, i'm in the UK. I've had outstanding service from Japanesechefsknife.com....are there any others i should look at??

Thanks in advance.
 
Try this questionnaire so we can better assist you.

LOCATION
What country are you in?



KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?

Are you right or left handed?

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)

What knife, if any, are you replacing?

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
 
Welcome Prize,

The traditional Japanese styles are all designed for specific tasks and are vastly inferior to a gyuto for general European style cookery. Debas are for breaking down fish. Yanagibas are for cutting fish into paper thin slices. Usubas for extremely fine technical vegetable work. If those are not things you do then you don't need a traditional knife. Don't let that stop you from buying one.

I am planning on buying a cheap carbon yanagiba and I have absolutely no use for one. It will almost certainly be out of whack, as cheap single bevels tend to be; but I will love it anyway and it will look cool. I sharpen it and hang it on a knife. I will try to even out the blade road and the blade road will become more uneven. I'll keep doing these these thing until there is no more metal on the knife. Maybe I'll even slice some fish with it on occasion.
[video=youtube;Ox2wgKuV_X0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ox2wgKuV_X0[/video]
[video=youtube;CKnhOGc68YY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKnhOGc68YY[/video]
[video=youtube;2MT7PRopK08]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MT7PRopK08[/video]
 
Sorry folks, it seems as if I've used the wrong terminology. By 'traditional japanese' It looks as though I meant to say 'new decent gyuto'!! (These forum newbies eh?!). I shall go through the questionnaire in the first reply when I get home as im only on my phone now. Thanks for the replies so far though. You're a very knowledgeable bunch. :)
 
Prize 78, I live in the UK too. The site you mention is a good resource. The prices are very high indeed compared with buying directly in Japan. It is not easy in the UK to get very high quality Japanese knives, and if you shop directly in Japan you get a massively better choice of course.

If you have used a decent Misono you are probably not going to improve massively on functionality but you can get a different feel. Before recommending anything in particular I would encourage you to think about what steel you think you want and what handle, single or double bevel blade. Then explain what you are going to use it for.

I tend not to use a Japanese style Gyuto as for me I might as well use a Misono UX10, hence all but one or two of my traditional Japanese knifes are purpose orientated and very few are stainless steel. The ones I use most are a big heavy Deba and a couple of blue steel vegetable prep knives with different blade profiles.
 
I meant to add, for a good European supplier, it is worth checking out JapaneseNatural Stones dot com. This is based in Denmark and is run my one guy, but he is a great source of genuine quality knives in Europe, as well as a wide range of natural stones and other stuff. Not cheap of course (nothing is cheap in Denmark!). However, he has some decent Gyutos in stock and I have found him t be reliable and he does actually know what he is talking about.
 
LOCATION
What country are you in?

UK

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?

Chef's knife

Are you right or left handed?

Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?

Japanese

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?

210 or 240mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)

I suppose stainless is easier to maintain, but by no means a necessity.

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?

For my first knife of this style, i suppose more of a beginners budget.....not overly sure what prices they start at for a reasonable one??

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?

Mainly at home, but do work in a kitchen for a job, so, both, to a certain degree.

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)

Slicing veg, chopping veg, mincing veg, slicing meats, trimming meats.

What knife, if any, are you replacing?

Mainly use western handle gyuto (Misono ux10 for example)

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)

Pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)

Chopping, push cutting


What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?

Aesthetics, edge retention, ease of use.

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)

Wood only

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)

Yes.

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

Yes, always interested.

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)

Yes.

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

Just want to have a go with some different steel.....read a lot about Aogami Super, and the blues etc
 
Thanks for the replies Adrian. Some good info there. :)

Nick
 
Agree with the recommendations but can't agree on JCK prices being "very high indeed" compared to buying direct from Japan. Koki's mark-up is very reasonable, his customer service is exemplary and he's great with specific requests and deals with returns/problems promptly. Add in his shipping policy and buying knives from him (if you are in the UK) is a no brainer, imho.

Based on your preferences I'd take a look at this:

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-stainless-kasumi-210mm-wa-gyuto/
 
Agree with the recommendations but can't agree on JCK prices being "very high indeed" compared to buying direct from Japan. Koki's mark-up is very reasonable, his customer service is exemplary and he's great with specific requests and deals with returns/problems promptly. Add in his shipping policy and buying knives from him (if you are in the UK) is a no brainer, imho.

Based on your preferences I'd take a look at this:

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-stainless-kasumi-210mm-wa-gyuto/

Thanks very much, funnily enough i was just having a look at that very knife. Seems like a good shout. :)
 
No problem Nick. Nice grind on those Itinomonn stainless knives. Cladding has a nice kasumi/matte finish and the semi-stainless core slowly takes a nice patina, an aesthetic that I like. Edge retention is a particularly strong suit with these imo.
 
I can only speak highly of the Cutting Edge in the UK, not cheap but prices are comparable to some USA and Canada vendors. The choice is limited though and for "Exotic" choices you can definitely rely on the vendors on this site.

I have not used JNS services but the Epicurean Edge were great to deal with.
 
Maybe snag a Hiromoto AS 240mm Gyuto while/if you can?
 
Thanks for the input folks. Much appreciated. I've read good things about the Hiromoto?
 
Yeah, I keep going back to look at it, and liking it more each time I do! :)
 
Apologies, what I meant by "very high" compared with buying direct from Japan, is not importing, but the prices you will pay if you are actually in Japan and paying in cash in Yen. My experience (several trips to Tokyo, Kyoto, Osaka, Sakai, Takefu, Kobe etc) is that costs are about half what I would expect to pay in Europe. On our last trip, in October 2014, I bought 8 high end knives and in some cases paid a third of on-line retail. Of course, travelling to Japan is necessary and last time we spent 4 weeks there. Adrian
 
Mr Oli

I agree that cutting edge knives in the UK are pretty good and I have bought two knives from there myself to check them out. Really though, they are selling quite mass produced knives, not artisan material, and the prices reflect that. If you want high end, or artisan made, you will not find it there. Adrian
 
Well I think for what I require at this point in time, the Intinomonn is leading the race. Always open to other suggestions though. :)
 
One more vote for the Itinomonn, I have the kurouchi nashiji one (which is, however, currently out of stock) and its a great knife:)! For differences in the particular lines look for instance at this video: [video=youtube;lPmKlLACP9E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPmKlLACP9E[/video]. Or at this thread: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/17170-Itinomonn-Maksim-please-tells-us-more-). But generally, Itinomonn knives are considered a great buy for the money...I personally like the nashiji version very much, its nicely rustic and the kurouchi is almost 3D, but if you prefer stainless, the kasumi version might be a better option for you...Anyway, good luck:)!
 
By the way - the video I mentioned made Maxim (the owner of JNS) as a reaction on the numerous question about the particular lines, so its also mentioned in the thread about Itinomonn knives - so, sorry for this overlap:)..
 
Great stuff, thanks for the video. The Itinomonn looks like a good bet.
 
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