Looking to purchase first 240mm gyuto...Please advise!

Hi everyone,

I am a home cook, currently using entry level chef and santoku knives, and I am looking to upgrade these soon when they bite the bullet. I started working on my knife skills a few years ago as I started to enjoy cooking more and more, and now I feel that I am ready for a knife that can last me a lifetime. My first (and current) chef knife is a stamped Henckels Fine Edge Synergy 8" that came as part of a block set. Recently, I started doing some research and venturing out with new types of knives and I purchased a Pure Komachi 2 hollow-ground santoku (6.5") as a test run to see if I liked the style. While I really enjoyed the sharpness and weight of the santoku, I was sorely missing the rounded point for the rocking motion as tend to switch between a push cut and rocking motion (and also was almost sure that this knife didn't hold a candle to a high-end knife). At this point, I am looking for just one REALLY NICE all around chef knife/gyuto to start with, for an average home cook who likes nice things. Here are my responses to the questionnaire:

LOCATION
USA

KNIFE TYPE
chef knife/gyuto

Are you right or left handed?
Right handed

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
I'm indifferent...I have only used western so far but I can certainly see how a japanese handle could be very comfortable and will be open to it.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
240mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
i would prefer stainless steel, or stainless steel clad. I am also OK with a carbon edge, i can learn to be careful.

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
ideally under 200 for just the knife, but will pay up to 230 if the quality and performance is up to par.

KNIFE USE
home usage

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for
slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, trimming meats

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
henckels synergy 8" and pure komachi 2 stanoku

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use?
pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use?
mostly push cut, maybe some rocking (herbs, mincing, etc)

Better aesthetics: this is a knife i would like to purchase and use for a lifetime, so fit and finish is important to me and yes, i would like for it to look pretty. i have no preference on steel and wood pattern, and will not be upset if the blades patinas or scratches slightly.

Comfort: i'm pretty open to various weights as long as the knife is well balanced for a pinch grip. as mentioned above, f&f is pretty important in this purchase.

Ease of Use:
i would definitely like a knife that will fly through product with push cutting and chopping. i'm ok with average food release. the henckel has no choil clearance so I cannot use it in a pinch grip, and i miss the rounded tip of the chef knife on the santoku - so i figured a gyuto would be the best of both worlds. i would like for the knife to have a nice edge out of the box, but i plan on learning how to sharpen anyway.

Edge Retention: indifferent, as long as i don't need to sharpen it every month! i cook about 3-4 times a week, usually in quantity

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board?
I use a bamboo cutting board with replaceable cutting sheets that go on top of it (which are some kind of plastic)

Do you sharpen your own knives?
i do at the moment using a henckels sharpener, but will be purchasing sharpening stones with this knife so i am interested in learning how to sharpen the proper way.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions everyone!!!

At that price point, you might want to consider the Akifusa SRS15. I think Jon sells them also, probably with some unique JKI specifications, as the Gesshin Kagero. It's a western handled gyuto with powdered steel, clad in softer stainless steel. Can get scary sharp and has a reputation for great edge retention. One thing you can tell about this knife is that the money that went into making it was allocated heavily toward performance (F&F is great too). But you are not paying for cosmetic perks like damascus, etc. Not that it is a bad looking knife at all - just looks like it means business anyway I have the santoku in this series so can vouch for it. Just seems like a good fit based on the criteria you mentioned.

Good luck! I'm sure you'll get lots of great suggestions.

Upon re-reading, one caveat . . . Do not use your gyuto to break down poultry, it could easily chip. To break down birds you should get a honesuki. If you don't want to spend an inordinate amount on a knife that will be used for a limited purpose, then the Tojiro DP (VG10 core) and Fujiwara FKM (AUS8? I think) are commonly recommended.

chiffonodd said:

If you don't want to spend an inordinate amount on a knife then you are in the WRONG PLACE! :cool2::cool2::cool2:

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Fixed that for you. hehehe Actually your point about knives and bones is well taken. But. A honesuki may not fare well with chicken if not used properly and if used properly most any knife can break down a chicken.

+1 so true . . .

How about an Itinomon Stainless Kasumi 240mm Wa-gyuto from Japanese Natural Stones? I also agree with the Akifusa as well. If you look around at the site supporting vendors you can find many excellent choices. If you enjoy quality products, it may be tough to stop at simply one knife though it is possible. Good luck on your sharpening quest.
:2cents:

thanks for your help guys! i should have been clearer in my questionnaire, but i wasn't planning on using the gyuto to butcher and debone...thanks for the concern though! by meat trimming, i just meant slicing boneless chicken thighs, trimming silverskin...things like that.

i'm definitely looking to get something beyond the tojiro and fujiwaras. my first bit of research (which led me to this forum) started with wusthof which then took me to shun...and after more research about japanese knives, i've decided that the money applied towards a shun could get me a much nicer knife for the same price. something more performant, and with more character.

the Itinomon is a bit more than i would like to spend (for now), but the gesshin kagero seems pretty awesome. the look is something i'm very much into, as you said damascus is nice but i'm definitely into something classic but means business...and the price point is great. what about brands like sukenari, kikuichi, hattori, or tanaka...or any of these worth a look for what i am looking for?

Welcome aboard! The advice on Gesshin Kagero and itinomonn is indeed sound - remember - Maksim from JNS ships free (DHL Express) worldwide for oderds above 1000DKK, so you would just fit your budget with the 240 wa stainless clad semi-stainlesds core.n And then tehre is the stainless clad V2 Itinomonn for a little less than $200. Those two knives however seem to have different profiles (the one with V2 core is taller at the heel and seems to have more belly)

Check out also Yoshikane SKD (stainless clad semi-stainless core steel, trully excellent) - it is available with "hammered" finish mostly.

Giving Jon from JKI a call would be a good idea too.

For sharpening - make sure to check out the sharpening playlist made by Jon from JKI. It covers practically everything you need to get started.

Have fun choosing your first "proper" knife

You can de-bone chicken fine with a delicate gyuto if you use the right techniques. -You might want poultry sheers, meat cleaver, or a beater for spatchcocking or removing the spine though. I often come across bone chips or strips in 'deboned' chicken; so you might want a knife that can handle the occasional obstacle.

Much of what you're looking for can be obtained by learning and honing your skills (last a lifetime, push vs rocking). Lateral stress on a softer steel causes the edge to curl. Harder steels may chip. -Both fatigue. I see a lot of chefs and cooks buying expensive knives, abusing the crap out of them, and acting like they're pro and know what they're doing with knives and yet they need to sharpen them daily while I could do more with the house knives.

If you're creating a bur when sharpening; you're creating fatigue.

I don't think Yo handles are more comfortable than Wa, and it seems like Japanese are slowly adopting the Wa style. For me; Wa is more durable, while Yo is easier to upgrade or replace. On horizontal cuts near the board; I prefer the Wa handle with the hook at the butt for extra clearance and ease of pulling.

Tojiro isn't limited to just the DP line. They have some really nice looking knives, and even some HS PM steel knives. They also have some clunkers that could use some heavy after market finishing, but they're priced accordingly. By giving a DP a secondary bevel or micro-bevel, and getting past the factory edge, and other tricks; you can get the edge retention to be pretty damn good. I have the Tojiro F-521 (PM steel). -It holds an edge quite long and was surprisingly quick and easy to sharpen on stones.

A knife may last you a lifetime; but it's not going to be the same knife it was. A gyuto may end up as a Sujihiki if you use it for everything. Suji's are nice. -Less stiction, less weight.

Having a variety of knives can preserve edge retention and make specific jobs easier.

The knife I want to use most when I'm home? - Victorinox 8" Chef's. I'm not worried about cleaning right after use, it can do about anything, it's cheap by comparison, and is the least likely to be stolen. At work; I'm ok with the house knives, but cooks tend to destroy their edges. -The main reason I bring my own knives to work.

the_edge said:

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I don't think Yo handles are more comfortable than Wa, and it seems like Japanese are slowly adopting the Wa style. For me; Wa is more durable, while Yo is easier to upgrade or replace. On horizontal cuts near the board; I prefer the Wa handle with the hook at the butt for extra clearance and ease of pulling.

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This is confusing to me, Wa is Japanese handle and Yo is Western handle right? Never seen a Wa with a "hook at the butt"

Calling Yo or Wa handle more (or less) comfortable is purely matter of personal preference (kind of use, type of knife, grip, etc). Another important aspect is that handle type strongly influences the weight and balance of knife and that has implications on how does the knife perform with different cutting styles and so on. So for me the choice of Yo or Wa depends on what I what to do with the knife and how I want to do it.

Since you are a home cook I will suggest you three knives, beautiful, scary sharp out of the box, that you will never have to sharpen :happymug:

a. http://japanesechefsknife.com/RyusenTsuchimeDamascusSeries.html#RyusenTsuchime

Pretty cheap, very beautiful, perfect fit and finish, it will add grace to your kitchen(sold out now, but talk with Koki, most likely he can find it

b.http://www.korin-france.fr/nos-collections/marques/ryusen/blazen-gyuto.html

By far the cheapest Blazen I found, magnetic sheath, unlike to what I have read in forums, Korin France Blazen is very thin. Thinner than all of my 24cm gyutos, beautiful. Perfect fit and finish. I wait now for the 21cm to arrive. Dominique, just like Koki, very co-operative.

c.http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/honmamon-r/item/4582243652988/

Just saw it while surfing. I do not have it, or touched it, but it looks a Blazen without letters on the blade, without sheath, and more square handle.
Personally, i would choose Blazen over it

I am a big Ryusen fan

joetbn said:

This is confusing to me, Wa is Japanese handle and Yo is Western handle right? Never seen a Wa with a "hook at the butt"

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Me thinks it's edge that's confused the Wa and the Yo. Would not be the first time someone has done that. FWBNID.

@OP. I read that JKI has restocked the Gesshin Uraku series. Run, don't walk, to Jon's site. The Uraku will check all your boxes for less than #200.

Hey all,

Thanks for all the advice! It's a bit overwhelming, but very interesting and fun. I tend to get addicted to things, and the more i research japanese knives the cooler i think it is...i have no doubt, as previously mentioned, that this will not be my last. Funny thing, i was actually planning on purchasing the 8" victorinox fibrox for "rougher" jobs and keep my gyuto for suitable product and tasks.

The Ryusen Tsuchime looks awesome, but I've read about people not preferring VG10 - is this valid of all knives, or does it just depend on the way the blade is made? Sorry if my questions are irrelevant, i am still new and learning. How does VG10 fare vs other metals such as G3 stainless, Aogami Super, V2, or SRS15/powdered steel? I ask this because here is the list of knives I have narrowed it down to (all in 240mm gyuto):

Ryusen Tsuchime
Hiromoto Tenmi Juryaku either in gingami or AS
Itinomonn Kasumi in V2 w/ stainless cladding
Gesshin either Ginga or Kagero
Yoshinake SKD12
Also, I've found the haruyuki SRS15 which I read was the same as the Akifusa...That is the one that is similar to the Gesshin Kagero but without the JKI specs?

Between all those, I can't seem to figure out the advantages that one would have over the other when it comes to steels. as far as edge though i think i do prefer the ones with some more belly, such as the Itinomomm or the Yoshikane (although they all do look very close anyway). As far as balance, I do prefer a balance point just forward of the bolster.

Not all VG-10 are the same. Ryusen are the best. Maybe because Takefu, the company that produces VG-10 are in the same town with Ryusen, and they have told them the secrets of the steel. Maybe. I don't know why, but Ryusen VG-10 is superior. VG-10 is somehow harder to raise burr when you sharpen it, but you are a house chef, you might never have to, if you respect your knife and never abuse it.

Some people say that VG-10 cannot be done so sharp, or to have a velvet laser feeling while cutting.

I say, that since out of the box it has it, then it is all about sharpening skills and shaprening set. The steel has the potential.

The knife is super comfortable, with rounded spine.

Even the cheapest decent Japanese knife is very good. Problem is your cutting skills. It is very different to get cut with a Japanese knife, than to get cut with a Victorinox-Forschner

Be careful of your fingers! Slowly at the beginning!!!

VG-10 is good steel depending on who did the work--it has a reputation (in my experience it is true) that it can be difficult to deburr.

The best knife I see on your options is the Gesshin Kagero from JKI. It is similar to the Akifusa but Jon's adjustments are what make most of the things he sells better. I have a Kagero (my only current stainless) and it is a very high quality knife with nothing needed out of box. That said, I had Jon sharpen it before shipping just to add that final touch.

The steel in this knife (srs-15) will hold up better than any other on your list as it is a pm steel so if you like to sharpen you may not enjoy this knife so much--edge lasts seemingly forever.

lus1: for the gesshin kagero. this is a wicked knife, even as akifusa/ikeda/haruyuki/artisan (same knife without jon's "twist"). the ginga would be my no.2. or my no.1? can't decide!!!

Here one of the Takamura brothers, show how to deburr R-2 SG-2 powder steel.(towards the end of the video). In a different video, it says that all his jeans have holes :biggrin:

[video=youtube;zEaSObShFX4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEaSObShFX4[/video]

Thankfully, my knife technique is not half bad and getting better - however good advice. i would suspect that getting nicked by a german knife is entirely different than getting nicked (maimed) by a japanese knife.

OK, i think I am now leaning towards the gesshins...question is, what is the difference between Ginga and Kagero? Daddy Yo Yo, what makes Ginga come so close to the Kagero for you?

Not a Japanese expert here, but just to put the WA YO confusion to rest.

和= WA= a prefix in many Japanese words that means "japanese styled", could be room (washitsu), food (washoku), knife handle, whatever. There are several othe meanings for this character but in our discussions it means a Japanese handled knife.

洋= YO= a prefix meaning "Western/foreign styled". In our discussions a European styled handle with a full tang, often a bolster of some sort, and two knife scales attached with rivets

:hula:

Let us know what you decide to get. I suspect it may not be your last knife purchase.

I purchased Daddy Yo Yo's 210 Artisan Gyuto (one version of the Akifusa) off of BST and it is a very good performer. It has a great distal taper all the way down to the tip, gets very sharp, and cuts extremely well. The spine is thicker at the heel ~3mm, but tapers off fast, and the geometry is nice. I can only imagine the Kagero being even better. Very happy with my Artisan 210.

No experience with the Ginga, but do not see many bad things said about them. Might come down to the handle type you prefer.

Half the fun of buying a knife from Jon is letting him lay out the differences and help make an individual fit each time depending on your needs.

that's what i'm finding! i may have to give him a call and see what he suggests. the ginga is currently out of stock anyway so it's giving me plenty of time to make a decision until i receive that "back in stock" e-mail.

I have 210 gyuto Akifusa and I really like it. I was not aware that GESSHIN KAGERO is also Akifusa. I was just checking pics on Jon's site and I really like it. It looks better than my standard Akifusa: the blade is taller and on the pics I can see that the spine is slightly rounded. Mine came with square edges on the spine and I was really disappointed. I immediately rounded them a bit.
This was my second Japanese knife. Now for a long time I am not buying western handles any more as I prefer Japanese...

I also have Blazen honesuki, I must admit I like Akifusa much more! Not the same knife though.

i think for my first "real" knife, i'll start with a western handle. however, i'm pretty sure that i'm going to quickly follow with a japanese handle just to have one of each.

testing123 said:

i think for my first "real" knife, i'll start with a western handle. however, i'm pretty sure that i'm going to quickly follow with a japanese handle just to have one of each.

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GG is a laser i.e. very thin and light. But you should call Jon he will explain everything and more!

chiffonodd said:

GG is a laser i.e. very thin and light. But you should call Jon he will explain everything and more!

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That was supposed to be in reply to your question about kagero versus ginga, not sure what happened there

krx927 said:

I was not aware that GESSHIN KAGERO is also Akifusa. I was just checking pics on Jon's site and I really like it. It looks better than my standard Akifusa: the blade is taller and on the pics I can see that the spine is slightly rounded. Mine came with square edges on the spine and I was really disappointed. I immediately rounded them a bit.

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This assertion that the Kagero and the Akifusa are the same knife keeps popping up, often enough that it's largely thought to be true. I've not seen Jon address it either way. What is the basis for the assertion?

I generally stay out of things like this, for a wide variety of reasons. But, in some cases, my hands are tied, as a very common stipulation of makers willing to do custom projects for us is that i not talk about these kinds of things. OEM products are rather common to be frank. We do indeed make changes to our custom lines, and i am rather uptight about consistency and fit and finish. Most craftsmen do not want it to be known that certain things are coming from the same place (even if the products differ... whether that difference be great or small).