Vintage sabatier beater knife?

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Bigbadwolfen

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hey all, I have come to the insight that I will probably need some type of beater knife around home (not overly excited about using my koishi for nuts and such) and Ive been very impressed about all sick vintage sabatier refurbs around here. Therefor I'm wondering if a refurbished sabatier would work good as some type of beater knife? Or do you have any other recommendations? I don't have any old cheap Germans or similar at home since I bought the good stuff straight away and I'm not really interested in buying a new cheapo knife because I would like to be able to have it hanging on the list together with the rest of my knives without looking misplaced. ;)
 
A vintage carbon could be interesting, but prices have risen a lot. The advantage of soft carbon is, it won't chip. Damage can be easily addressed. But buying a vintage you never know what you get: it's hard to tell from photos how much work will be involved. Very common issues are a protruding heel, reverse belly, tip damage, need of a lot of thinning. POM handles tend to get brittle over time. Steeling and dishwashers may have weakened the edge, that will have to be completely removed. Overgrinds will appear only when sharpening.
A new carbon chef's knife by K-Sabatier or Thiers-Issard may be an option. But don't expect the level of perfection that's perfectly common with Japanese blades. Or have a basic Japanese blade -- Fujiwara FKH, Masahiro VC, Misono Swedish -- and put a conservative edge on it.
 
Check out the NOS Sab Nogents at The Best Things.
 
I am not the most experienced Sabatier owner on this forum, but as a newbie to the NOS Nogent's, I can attest to the current purchasing experience if you are interested in one available from The Best Things as has been recommended above.

Firstly, service and shipping speed from TBT is excellent; my order shipped within hours of placing it, they answered my questions very graciously, and it arrived well packaged. A very good, small-business experience.

Secondly, the modern Ti-Sabatier's ground from pre-WWII forged carbon blanks are notorious for quality control problems. This may not be 100% the manufacturers fault, as I hear that the blanks are pretty rough and difficult to salvage, but in my experience these problems are very real. The grind of my Nogent paring knife is 'random' to say the least, and needed quite a lot of work reprofiling, thinning, refinishing, and establishing a bevel out of the box before it was useable. These are project knives, and as long as you recognize this before purchasing, you won't be disappointed. On the smaller knives, if you are an experienced sharpener and are interested in the project, fixing these issues can be an interesting learning experience. On a larger blade, like a chef's knife, I would suggest budgeting from the outset to outsource the work to someone like Dave Martell or Epicurean Edge - who I believe have experience with these knives - or someone similar who has the experience and power equipment to properly re-grind and potentially straighten the blade. It is worth it, and you will be much happier with the knife at the end of the day. It still won't cut like a properly ground Japanese knife, but it will be much more useable than you find it out of the box.

The steel is also very reactive; more so than even my Shirogami #2 Masakage Yuki petty, and much more so than my Aogami Super gyuto. It can discolour, smell, and give a metallic flavor to food, but it does take on a beautiful patina fairly quickly, and this does help.

Now the plus-sides. I cannot attest to the larger knives, but from what I read they share this feature; my Sabatier Nogent parer is one of the best knives I have used in regards to blade shape and handle ergonomics. It reminds me in a way of the old British cars I have driven; they were made in a time before 'ergonomics' was a science, but still manage to be way more comfortable in terms of driving position and control placement than any of the modern vehicles I have been in. As soon as you use one, you understand why these NOS Sabatier's receive the hype that they do; they're lovely to work with and hold. They also develop a comfortably 'well worn' look very quickly, which gives them a certain rustic charm.

Sharpening-wise, once the major work is over, the steel is one of the easiest I have ever sharpened and fairly forgiving of sharpening media. It isn't hardened very high, so it doesn't hold as fine or as acute of an edge for as long as a good Japanese carbon knife, but they still have better edge retention than the brand-name European stainless knives I have used. My paring knife still seems to hold a 15-dps edge just fine without folding too quickly, but on a beater chef's knife a slightly higher edge and periodic steeling on a smooth polished rod might be necessary to keep the edge in line. I finish my parer on a well broken-in Translucent Arkansas stone followed by a bare leather hanging barber's strop, which leaves an edge that will shave comfortably, but my attempts to take it much higher than this (0.5 micron and finer) have resulted in poor edge retention telling me that this (Maybe around the 10-12K level; it's hard to assign a specific grit to natural stones.) is about the max that this steel can hold at this HRC. You can use synthetic water stones, but I found that non-slurrying stones like diamond plates and Arkansas stones seem to leave the crispest edge on this steel.

Hopefully this helps... As I said, I do not have the experience with these knives that other members do, but this has been my limited experience for what it is worth. I love my Nogent, and would possibly buy another (Maybe a petty, or a chef's knife.) if I needed a less delicate, non-Japanese knife, but they certainly have their flaws and if I did buy another I would either wait until I had a belt grinder and a bit more experience or send it to someone who did.

- Steampunk
 
Just to add to what SP said--there a is a huge variation among each knife. I've actually driven to their office (not really a showroom) to hand pick my knives...my petty was perfect oob while the others all had some inconsistency. Actually from my experience I thought the paring knives were the biggest hit or miss--mostly miss. The girl that works there (I've not been in over a year) was very patient as I overly examined every knife. She'll pick one for you, but if you're a Knerd then your criteria will be different than hers.
 
I have an old Sabatier 4 Elephants carbon steel 8" chef's knife that I bought over 40 years ago. It patinas quickly, and I have never noticed any metallic taste from it. I also have a 6". They don't get used much now, but are good knives. Edge holding is actually comparable to that from my old Gerber paring knives in 440C.
I have read that blade warping is a problem with some of the older Sabatiers that are now being sold. Ask about this when buying one, just to make sure you get a straight blade. Mine is certainly straight.
 
About what angle do you sharpen your Tojiro DP? For a beater, I'm going to either use that or get a Victorinox.

I'd rather use a Victorinox for a beater knife because of the softer steel. While I don't disagree Tojiro DP are an excellent value, when I think "beater" I think something that's less likely to chip. IMO Victorinox steel is less likely to chip than VG10.
 
If you're sure there will be some damage, better control damage and make sure repair is easy. That's why a soft carbon is a great solution: damage will be limited -- no chipping -- and repair is very easy. I don't like having to sharpen either VG-10 nor soft stainless.
 
SP, I liked your comments. However, to seemingly praise these knives for having one of the best blade shapes -- only after you have had to do a lot of work reprofiling (and significantly changing the geometry) -- sounds to me like saying (to borrow your car analogy) that old MG TCs had great seats -- once you put in new springs and cushioning and reupholstered them.
 
No. Those NOS knives might often present imperfections -- bents, warps, slight overgrinds -- but none of these alter their immediate function. No need for any "significant geometry change". Better not. Just put a decent edge on it, as with most blades. People love them because of profile, balance, material, tradition. But, if you like it, work a bit on them to have them to be a bit better.
 
SP, I liked your comments. However, to seemingly praise these knives for having one of the best blade shapes -- only after you have had to do a lot of work reprofiling (and significantly changing the geometry) -- sounds to me like saying (to borrow your car analogy) that old MG TCs had great seats -- once you put in new springs and cushioning and reupholstered them.

As I said, I am still a carbon Sab newbie, and there are others like Benuser and Chinacats with much more experience in this area than I. However, I hoped that my experience might still be of some use... Your continuation of my analogy is correct; they need some 'restoration' when you first get them, but the repairs on my knife didn't illicite any major changes in shape or geometry. There was a very slight frown in the belly of the blade that needed fixing, and the tip and heel were significantly thicker behind the edge than in the middle 2/3rds. There was also no edge bevel out of the box. I thinned just enough to even up the edge thickness, and a few light passes on the stones removed the frown so I could then establish a bevel.

I hope that this clarifies my previous statement. :)

- Steampunk
 
As I said, I am still a carbon Sab newbie, and there are others like Benuser and Chinacats with much more experience in this area than I. However, I hoped that my experience might still be of some use... Your continuation of my analogy is correct; they need some 'restoration' when you first get them, but the repairs on my knife didn't illicite any major changes in shape or geometry. There was a very slight frown in the belly of the blade that needed fixing, and the tip and heel were significantly thicker behind the edge than in the middle 2/3rds. There was also no edge bevel out of the box/B]. I thinned just enough to even up the edge thickness, and a few light passes on the stones removed the frown so I could then establish a bevel.[I hope that this clarifies my previous statement. :)

- Steampunk

I use to buy old carbons so cheap that there is no box :happymug:
Old carbons are much more dificult to find in France than used ss, but threre is more fun with them. For a nob is a good school, how to sharpen somthink usefull and forgiving but cheap. Up to now I only sharppen them; nex step fixing domages.
 
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