"Earn the Knife" or Just "Buy the Best"?

Hey KKF,

I've been thinking a good deal about this concept for a while now since a co-worker (and fellow knife guy) and I have been chatting about our knives, stones, various accessories (sayas and holders etc...). He has taken a fairly interesting path in his knife hobby and I was wondering what you guys thought of it vs. the learning and growing slowly over time and "earning" the better knife line of thought where you learn to thin, setting bevel's, kasumi finishes, soaking stones and really tuning it to tactile feedback in sharpening etc.... before buying some upper end stuff. Aka the idea of learning and growing on something like a Gesshin Uraku or a Zakuri or a Fuji FKH or a Misono Swedish and then someday months or years later getting a Heiji or a Hide or something in that class when your really have a good grasp on some of these concepts. Of course this keeps the idea in mind that you ever really want to upgrade so to speak, there is nothing wrong with "stopping" at a Zakuri or a Fuji if your happy with it and it does what you need it to do.

My Co-worker figured out pretty dang fast that he loved Japanese knives, bought a Tojiro DP and after a few month's of it figured what the heck and bought a Kono HD2 along with some Shapton Pro's. Now, a while later, he's eyeing a Martell or a Haburn or a Marko etc..., basically something that one could argue is near the very top of performance (not that the Kono HD2 isn't....). The man is a no-nonsense type of guy so all his stuff needs to work fast and well with minimal fuss hence the Shapton Pro's and stainless/semi-stainless. Basically want's to have knives that will shave atom's but has no interest in spending an hour working on the perfect misty finish or creating a cool mustard patina design. He can sharpen fairly well (gets his stuff shaving sharp easily enough) but doesn't have that great of a grasp on thinning or changing bevel angles or setting up a micro bevel. He has been sharpening himself pretty much all the time and then maybe once a year or something sends the knife off to a pro (Jon or Dave or someone) to make sure it's really up to snuff, thinned if it needs it etc...

Anyhow, the point I'm trying to get at with this is if one style or philosophy here really is better than the other or is it truly a different strokes for different folks type of thing? Taking all the considerations about money or perceived value or sense of self satisfaction in learning and doing things yourself out, is one path or the other really "better"?

I'm personally at a loss to really make heads or tails of it because I can see justification and validity in both sides. Co-worker and I are always debating this point so I'm curious to see what you all think about it!

Personally I don't view knives like the Uraku, Zakuri or Misono as entry-level - in the right hands, and with skilled sharpening and technique they are essentially the equal of more expensive knives, that is to say technique is clearly more important than tool. Some people may even like them more (I guess this comes back to different strokes for different folks). Paying more may (and probably will) get you a higher level of refinement initially - however, as with all esoteric things, the law of diminishing returns applies. If you like fancy, hand crafted pieces made from exotic materials, great. If you like simple, functional performers which are fit for purpose, just as good.

In the context of this discussion it is necessary to distinguish between different tiers of knives, that could apply to performance, fit and finish, refinement, performance etc... Overall there needs to be some way to classify the knives we are talking about because something like a Kono HD2 and an Uraku are NOT in the same class or league regarding something like fit and finish, performance, price etc... It isn't to say that one is always 100% better than the other in every situation, I think that largely depends upon your needs and use of the knife but it wouldn't be fair to say they are equal knives.

I agree that entry level might not be the best term but I feel that it fits here because there needs to be same way to distinguish and classify the knives we are talking about. It's all comparative and given the other knives being discussed I think it works.

Of course we can always agree to disagree on semantics :biggrin:

The point about technique being more important than tool is definitely true however, if we are talking about the same user (a fairly proficient cook and knife user having done some time in a variety of kitchens before his current job) then the tool definitely matters. The same user with the same skill set using two different knives say an Uraku and a Kono HD2 will notice a difference in performance. One could argue how large it might be but if both knives are adequately sharpened and used by a mildly skilled/proficient user there most certainly is a performance difference....

I think the key here is that the same person is using the different tools, we are not talking about Joe Blow banging away on glass boards with a Kono HD2 and Nick the Chef using his End Grain Boardsmith at home wielding an Uraku he has lovingly cared for. In this case, yes I would say the user, sharpening and technique matter more but if Nick the Chef is using both I think that stance doesn't stand true about them (the two knives) being essentially equal.

Again this is just my take on it, the level of difference a user can detect and has an appreciation for is totally different person to person but I would argue it (level of difference in performance) definitely exists

Snake - You've got way to much time on your hands :angel2::angel2:

No brainer for me. I wasted a lot of time with "learner" knives. If I had my time again I would go high end steel and top notch stones straight away. Not bothered about fancy handles.

I think I buy what I think will bring me enjoyment without worrying about whether I "deserve" it or not.

to be honest, I am still not 100% sure I understand what makes my rolex cost as much more than previous omega as it does. but I enjoy the watch and that's enough for me.

and I love my expensive gyuto; holding it and looking at it and just dicing some onions with it all make it easily worth what I paid for it. am I the best sharpener in the world? hardly. do I have the knife skills to pay the bills? um, Im work with statistics lol. I feel like I paid an awful lot to get an ebony handle and R2 damascus, and while the grind on my knife is very good, when it comes to dicing onions I suspect an HD2 would make those initial slices better. At half the price. And I dice a lot of onions.

I would also say that the higher end the knife is the harder it is to use/sharpen, since the difference is often much harder steel, much better finish and both are prone to either chipping or ruining the finish in wrong hands (like mine, haha).

I would also say that very sharp knife is about 95% as good as any other high end knife, so the 5% of 2-6x the cost is often hard to justify. The same principle applies to most other finer things: once you reach a certain level, the further improvement often costs much more/much more complicated to differentiate/apply.

Buy the knife, the only place id even consider slow progression is if I was a chef in a traditional japanese restaurant and thats only because its tradition, I would probably still rock the knives I want at home, think about it we all work hard, who can possibly tell me, no Evan you can't buy a mizu-honyaki super ultra mega $1000 gyuto that can cut space and time(I currently do not own a mizu honyaki ) . when you buy a knife buy whatever makes you happy, cooking is about expressing ones feelings through food. Its an art form and therefore I feel even my tools should reflect that. short awnser isnt buy the best or earn the knife, its procure the knife that you want, if you want to slowly climb the ladder of knifes, from victorox- tojiro - masakage - shigfuesa - mizu honyaki of awesomeness than do it, because thats what will make you happy, it will give you a sense of accomplishment, on the other hand if you walk into a store and see a shig, or a takeda or any other knife and you like it, who cares if its (Above you) buy it and make the knife your *****.

End Rant..

Let's look at the bare truth. If I - as home cook (not a particularly good one either) - were to try to follow the path of "earning" the nice and/or fancy knives and stones, I would probably be in my 50' before (though I my wife would not mind) I would get beyond Tojiro DP. While I am not that bad with taking care of my knives I can see that I have still a lot to to learn (the knives show that clearly) I just love using my Billipp, Carter, Shigefusa, Suisin, Masakage or that little Kato, as well as the Gesshin stones, even if they are "wasted" for a cook/sharpener like me.

It is an interesting question. The Uraku is a nice blade easy to raise a burr, quality steel at price point. I've heard the argument that a beginning cook or student should start off with low end Mercers, Victorinox, etc. that dent instead of chip.

I used Forschners for some years before discovered Japanese Gyuto's in early 80's. My feeling was immediate worth the extra cost. After that only Japan blades for me.

A home cook buy a good Japanese or custom blade if you know how to take care of it. I encourage students to purchase at least one good quality Japanese gyuto & learn to take care. Once you cut with a quality knife it is hard to go back to lesser lowest common denominator blades.

Knife care is the key, not letting the edges bang into anything or using the blade for that which it is not intended. For careless persons who abuse knives keep the crappy stuff. A little knife care & learning to sharpen are about the only earning you need for the quality knives.

Is it not the hunt for the prefect knife/line up what is the thing?

ptolemy said:

I would also say that the higher end the knife is the harder it is to use . . . .

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Really? Is this a commonly held belief???

@SolidSnake03 -- I really like the issues you have raised. The notion of "earning" better knives has some logical appeal, perhaps because the opposite approach -- sort of "Just Do It" -- strikes me as rather impetuous, unthoughtful and haphazard, rather than carefully methodical. (Which nevertheless didn't stop me from proceeding in the latter fashion.) OTOH, if one really wants to be adventurous and try knives that are arguably beyond their skills, that's their decision. And if they are partially or primarily motivated by the "art" -- and appreciation of craftsmanship and aesthetics -- maybe more power to them? To use another car analogy, must I refrain from buying a Porsche until my track skills are more worthy of it? Refrain from buying a Ferrari that I think is visually and aurally beautiful until I am able to repair it myself?

let's just say, however you get there, you can't go back..
spoil yourself at your own risk
'what is this? UX10?! get this trash out of here!'

larrybard said:

Really? Is this a commonly held belief???

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no, I speak for myself

If you start by buying high end knives, you better know exactly what you like in terms of profile, weight, steel, etc or you're in for wasting a bunch of cash. I hate lasers (kono)!

I'm quite happy with how this thread has turned out so far. The thoughts are definitely interesting to see!

I agree with a good portion of the points here actually especially those in favor of the "buy what you want and enjoy it" perspective. I respect that mentality of doing what you want and enjoying it.

The car analogizes are a thoughtful point as well because it does provoke a certain line of thinking of "do my driving skills and needs really merit this Audi?" "Well no, but it is enjoyable to have and makes the driving experience more pleasant so why not if I can financially and responsibly afford it?"

China, that is a good point as well, it may be useful to determine your interests and preferences with things that are less expensive before committing to such pricey things. That said however, in watching the BST section, I see plenty of very expensive knives that seem to sell for a decent price (albeit less than they were bought for but the seller doesn't seem to get completely ripped).

As a relative beginner, myself, I think I have felt obliged to "start small." I've been practicing cooking knife skills and sharpening with a MAC pro series gyuto -- not that this is a bad knife by any means, it's just fairly user friendly, no frills, and relatively forgiving. I managed to go six months of very amateur (but always learning!) usage, including multiple sharpening sessions and a bamboo board, before I finally incurred some edge damage the other day -- and that's because I finally took the primary edge angle too low. But you know what? Now I get to practice resetting the primary edge at a higher angle, or just sharpening out the chips at the same angle and setting a microbevel. In other words, I get to experiment and build a skill set in various useful/necessary techniques, including, not least of all, the ability to troubleshoot a knife.

Could I get the same experience with a $500+ knife? For sure -- but I would feel way more apprehensive about it, and that would be a hindrance to progress. I also feel in some way that it would be presumptuous and disrespectful. But that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be great for someone else. I am just conscious of my own limitations and want to do what I think is best for me.

So bottom line: I think it totally depends on the person. Some of ya'll have worked with your hands all your life and are quite adept craftsmen, even if inexperienced with knives. Others are career desk jockeys, bookworms, and paper pushers, and need time to hone new skills and ways of thinking. I know that I fall into the latter camp

I have neither the skill nor the time to have 'earned' the majority of my knives.
As a home cook with a young family I am fortunate enough to be able to afford some of the knives I would like to own, by no means all that I would like
I know that some people on here have no time for damascus. I by no means subscribe to the thought that it adds anything to the cutting ability of the knife, I'm aware that all it adds is cost. But I like it. I also have monosteel knives too, and very nice they are.
Are my knives wasted on me ? Purely as tools, yes. As household implements they make my food preparation easier and far more joyful than it would otherwise be, I guess it's my decision if the money is worth it
Fortunately, the world is probably big, and weird, enough to cater to most of us

Over the past year I've tried at least 20 different knives. I say buy whatever you want, but it's hard to define what you want until you try more profiles, geometries, steels, handles, etc. At least use enough to figure out your preferences before dropping more than $300 on a knife.

Forget about "earning the knife" or "buying the best" how about figure out what you like first before forking out huge amounts of $

Besides the whole entry level, mid range high end thing is a complete joke sometimes. I've handled high end knives that cut horribly and entry levels that cut amazingly. Mostly these classes are separated by fit and finish issues that are sometimes easily resolved anyway with a bit of modifying.

What I'm getting at is it makes sense to start on "entry level" knives until you know what your looking for then start getting into high end if that's what you want to do.

I'd say buy whatever you want when it comes to a knife.....as long as you're confident with your sharpening skills.

My favorite part of the whole knife experience was the actual journey along the way...so my personal belief is to move up gradually. However, everyone is free to do what they want.

Improving sharpening and cutting techniques over time is what allows you appreciate and understand the subtle differences with blade geometry, shape, handle preference as well as weight/balance, in order to find what works best for your personal needs.

I still think my modified JCK Carbonext will outcut many of the expensive customs out there -- this is where I find the fun in it all. Back when i joined the original forum in 2008, it seemed the discussion was more about improving one's skills...now it seems like if it isn't a custom blade and handle, then it isn't really relevant to talk about.

Just my two cents.

Cadillac J said:

My favorite part of the whole knife experience was the actual journey along the way...so my personal belief is to move up gradually. However, everyone is free to do what they want.

Improving sharpening and cutting techniques over time is what allows you appreciate and understand the subtle differences with blade geometry, shape, handle preference as well as weight/balance, in order to find what works best for your personal needs.

I still think my modified JCK Carbonext will outcut many of the expensive customs out there -- this is where I find the fun in it all. Back when i joined the original forum in 2008, it seemed the discussion was more about improving one's skills...now it seems like if it isn't a custom blade and handle, then it isn't really relevant to talk about.

Just my two cents.

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+1 on the observation.

I don't have a strong opinion about how anyone should develop their knife collection/kit.

I am with XooMG. Don't really have an strong opinion, it is up to personal preference really.

Being a home cook, I am into this "hobby" for my enjoyment, and don't really spend the time in a kitchen to truly develop my skills to "suit" the knives I have. I started out on the lower end but quickly escalated to some of the mid to higher, mainly because I could and wanted to. The visual aspect of knives plays an important part to me as a collector, which the higher ends tend to spend more time on.

As for the "gotta start low so you don't waste money". That really is up to what the person can afford and what their uses are for them. I have yet to buy a knife I couldn't find a use for. Yes some are "daily cutters" while some are suited to specific tasks, but if you like it and can use it, keep it. Otherwise, if you are buying higher end, the reality is, you can probably sell it for only a 10-20% loss if you haven't used it much etc. So you aren't really wasting money.

Do either.

If you believe you can improve a knife, you buy an entry level knife and stones. For me, it was a Zhen 7 inch VG 10 santoku. Santoku felt unbalanced so I used some coarse stones laying around at the machine shop and pushed it down. Then Yoshihiro white 2 kuroichi gyuto 240. Also too heavy, especially coming from "heavy" western-style knives from the department store, Target, Walmart, and Asian supermarkets. Tried DMT 6-inch 3 stone set. Liked that they cut fast. Surface was shiny. Disliked that the actual stone surface was small and uneven. Left variable-size scratches on the knives. Thinned the gyuto. On the sides, didn't know how the geometry affects the performance at different distances from the edge. Way later on learned that cutting means incision, from the very edge and any teeth/polish from the grit, the first millimeter up which decides resistance and if the knife wedges and stops the knife or allows the knife edge to keep on cutting, the next third, which decides food release from its concavity/convexity, and then up to the spine and its thickness, which gives you more material to transfer your force to the edge, along with helping to decide how thick/thin the knife is below that point, since the entire surface of the knife is continuous and each surface affects the ones adjacent.

Wanted to try and find out things about info online. Wen to Yoshihiro Cutlery. Talked to Bruce, one of a two member team there. Embarrassed myself, learned little more than I could dislike a 2k+ knife as much as any other, if I didn't know what to like and dislike. In this case it was the weight and lack of exponential-like distal taper, like seen on Shigefusa knives. Learned I had to learn things myself. Knew this whole escapade of learning knives was self indulgent with the excuse of utility, which was very real, and is, especially with craftsman and those in the industry, who go through a lot of pain to make knives work. Went to Japanese Knife Imports. # hours. Got a 400 and 1000/6000 Gesshin stones. Three weeks later I came back and got a 240 Gesshin stone. Really hard to do work if I don't trust my tools. I still don't know if this was right or not. Just want to get the best, at least they

... could talk more. Won't. Knifes? It's about performance. Historical and traditional imput, as to use and construction of these things, and what you learn online and in your own use. There are principles that guide knives. I buy things if you can't do myself. I can't buy white steel, heat treat it, forge it. I can't make sharpening stones. I can thin, flatten, and sharpen knives though. To thin 3 mm to 2 mm, on the spine of the Yoshihiro? Takes a hell of a lot of time. But I can. A person can. But I wanted it thinner. But later learned that thinness behind the edge counts too. Still don't really know. Still need to find out. Mirror polished and then thinned the whole blade side 3 times. So redundant. Not a great job. Deep scratches still. Diamond stropping compound and metal polish in ammonia and oil. All for supposed food release, or at least less reactivity, among so many other things. Ugh.

So--for me. Either one. Either option. But what I did was get good tools and a basic knife. For now. For anyone else--anything, as long as you can fund your knife tuition with time and money, with as much research, obsessive, comparative research, as you can.

Maybe I'm biased being on the "earn you knife" path with a Zakuri, but I think if you intend to learn those techniques it's the more obvious route. In the other hand, if all you want is a nice knife and the basic skills to not ruin it there's no shame to it. I like feeling like Its in my hands to make my knife more what I want, but I get it being a far cry from what a lot would be looking for.

Graean, Welcome. Great first post.

Scrap said:

Maybe I'm biased being on the "earn you knife" path with a Zakuri, but I think if you intend to learn those techniques it's the more obvious route. In the other hand, if all you want is a nice knife and the basic skills to not ruin it there's no shame to it. I like feeling like Its in my hands to make my knife more what I want, but I get it being a far cry from what a lot would be looking for.

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Some of those Zakuri have a lot of potential too, if you're willing to put in some thoughtful effort. Not just "it's good for the price", but "I think I'll sell the Carter".

Granted, owning respected/expensive knives has helped me understand how far one can/should take a knife and what to reasonably expect from it.

I think that's an important point in favor of buying the nicer knives - a point of reference as much as a tool. Without handling something at that level it's much harder to figure out exactly what to strive for while working with one of the less finished knives