New User with questions

I'm from California and have been researching Japanese carbon knives for the past few weeks.

I would like to invest in some good quality cutlery and start to enjoy cooking. Since I'm not professional chef I know I don't need the best, because I wont be able to even tell. Therefore I need some assistance into knowing what is worth buying because the prices between similar performing knives can be drastic.

I figure I would need a 240mm Gyuto for most of the work, a smaller knife like a Sujihiki for delicate worth and smaller foods, and a Deba? I figure these 3 knives will cover all the needs in the foreseeable future. Please let me know the question's I'm not asking or considering.


My current picks:

1) I would like to own a mirrored Gyuto because it would be the biggest and shiniest. A youtube video showing a Sukenari ZDP-189 looked promising but is it worth it ($550)?
2) Carter Sujihiki ($453)?
3) Shiraki 180mm Damascas Deba ($470).


I still need a cool board but where do I turn for a good quality end grain board? Next I would buy some stones (600/1000/3000/6000/overkill?) and practice on some old knives.

How do i display/store these knives? I cannot adhere them to the wall (tile) but I would like a magnetic one so I dont chip the tips dropping them into a slot.

Welcome to KKF!

There's a standard questionnaire that will help the forum members to give you recommendations:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...hich-Knife-Should-I-Buy-quot-Questionnaire-v2

I'd also suggest that you read Chad Ward's book, "An Edge in the Kitchen" to get a better idea of what knives you actually need. 90% of everything you need to do in a kitchen can be done with one knife - a chef's knife (gyuto). Add a paring knife and maybe a bread knife, and you are set. A deba, by the way, is a very specialized knife for breaking down a whole fish. If you don't break down fish, you don't need one.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003V1WU5I/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Rick

Greetings! Agree with Rick as the questionnaire will assist greatly. I would likely suggest a gyuto, paring knife and possibly a petty. Deba is for breaking down fish while a sujihiki is generally used as a meat slicer.
Cheers

I have heard 1 knife can do it all, but I thought I had to be very skilled and therefore thought I needed more knives. The deba looked cool and that was the only criteria


I will take your recommendations to heart and do some more reading. Then I'll come back and fill in the gaps.

Where are you located in Ca?

What they said, for stones id start with a basic 1000 and 5000 grit, you dont need anthing sub 1000 unless your doing repairs or major overhall, as for pracice knives, I actually went to the grocery store and bought a few $5 knives of different shapes and had fun... fun fact bolsters atleast full ones suck. as for reading I would go watch all of jon from japanese knife imports videos(they are awesome) you dont need to watch the product intro videos, but he has a dozen on sharpening and a few on steel types. korin also has an excellent series, where they go through all the knife types, a deba isnt needed as they said, albeit I have a 120 mm westren deba, that I enjoy playing with(dont tell anyone but I use it for herbs, that rocking motion is insane) Id go for a decent gyuto, the one you have chosen is a powdered steel, so she may be fragile, one of our members here actually chipped it whilst having a few, but I still think its an excellent knife. I want one too, they look amazing. a paring, I use a mazakage mizu sub $100 blue number 2 75 mm one, good for peeling or doing small in the hands things, for detailed work youd simply want a longer one.. a lot of guys here use stainless as they do a lot of citrus work, which patinas knives like crazy. I have a masakage shimo one and the first lemon I cut the knife went yellow, which as its a damaskus knife didnt look the best, quickly cleaned her up with barkeepers friend(go buy this its 3 dollars and cleans metal amazingly well). Other than that id keep a softer gyuto around for high risk manouvers, mainly squash and things like splitting lobster tails.

So in short
1. Watch jons videos
[video=youtube;jV5cdqZuJ0o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV5cdqZuJ0o[/video]
[video=youtube;jkLsLst8qMc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkLsLst8qMc[/video]

those two are the most important for actual knife selection

2. find a couple gyutos you like and make a decision, the one you have selected looks amazing(I really really want one)
3. find a paring knife
4. find a petty(you wanted a smaller knife)
5. procure stones(1000 and 5000 grit should be enough)
6. practice with stones on cheap knives ( I went and bough 4 $5 knives of different shapes and sizes)
7. at this point you have fallen in love with japanese steel and will replace pornagraphy with ccguiran videos on the youtube
[video=youtube;AypUMFVo-3I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AypUMFVo-3I[/video] I found one of the knife you actually want
8. Buy more knives(this is when id buy a deba or a sujihiki or a nakira, usuba, bunka, list goes on.
9. Enjoy your food

Lovelynella said:

I'm from California and have been researching Japanese carbon knives for the past few weeks.

I would like to invest in some good quality cutlery and start to enjoy cooking.
My current picks:

1) I would like to own a mirrored Gyuto because it would be the biggest and shiniest. A youtube video showing a Sukenari ZDP-189 looked promising but is it worth it ($550)?
2) Carter Sujihiki ($453)?
3) Shiraki 180mm Damascas Deba ($470).


I still need a cool board but where do I turn for a good quality end grain board? Next I would buy some stones (600/1000/3000/6000/overkill?) and practice on some old knives.

How do i display/store these knives? I cannot adhere them to the wall (tile) but I would like a magnetic one so I dont chip the tips dropping them into a slot.

Click to expand...

I think you have some very good information to work with from the above comments. Keeping it simple is the way to go, you will amp up on knives & stones soon enough. IMHO the most important thing to get down is proper knife technique. I.E. thumb behind the fingers, and tips behind the knuckles. Always have the edge pointed away from you, even when setting it on a counter or table top. See "basic knife skills" videos on youtube. There are also plenty of sharpening videos on youtube that demonstrate various stones, knives, sharpening progressions, stropping, and thinning, etc.

BTW, you don't have to spend that much to get really nice Japanese knives. Check various reviews carefully. I greatly prefer stainless clad or stainless knives for home use.

Thanks Rico and Godslayer!

I'll be doing more work and find what I enjoy. I will get a board and stones first and practice with some of the knives we have at home that really need a new edge put on.

I'll be back when done because I still want a pretty knife, considering it will be expensive, but maybe I need to stop trying to spend so much for miniscule performance differences.


I'm south of Sacramento, CA.

See you soon . . .

Welcome! Yes, if you fill the questionnaire, it will be worth it your time. From what you just said, if you are certain you are ok spending that kind of money on gyuto and you would like a beautiful one, i would suggest a Tanaka R2 Ironwood. James has it on stock on 210mm http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-210mm-gyuto-r2-ironwood/ and a wa-handle version (not ironwood) on 240mm http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-240mm-wa-gyuto-r2-ebony-octagonal-handle/

The first one always takes some time to determine what is important to you. The next 100 are easier:cool2:

+1 on questionnaire.

LOCATION
Central California



KNIFE TYPE
Chef's Knife - Gyuto

Right Handed

I've never used non western handles, curious of Japanese handles

Not sure of length but 240mm would be minimum - Reason is that it looks aesthetically pleasing and our knife is smaller.

Stainless not required.

Budget - Not certain how to gauge relative knife value so I am not sure how much to spend.



KNIFE USE
Home Use.

I want a knife to use more of the time for everything, nothing specialized.

Replacing Cutco chef's knife -- prob 6-7 inch blade. Will Pair this with a 6-7in Stainless fluted Santoku that is still good.

Pinch Grip feels more comfortable

Push Cut, Rock.

The old chef's knife is too short and not tall enough. The tip chipped so I can no longer do delicate slice work. I want something capable of slicing fruits, chopping potatoes, and handling meats. I'm not very experienced in deboning and fileting.

I want it to look beautiful. I love mirror finished shiny knives. However a Kuru Ochi style looks good, and I'm not sure of handle. Since I've never had a fancy knife or hand anything other than molded full tang western handles.

Our current knives are light, but the heavy handle of the Santoku feels great. I don't mind weight, but want something that wont feel will snap in half when cutting into hard foods. I would prefer more weight towards the back. Something thin with a beautiful taper to a thick spine. If the spine is not useful because I will snap the blade if I ever hit it on anything, then as long as its thin I'm good.

I want something that will confidently cut through vegetables and meats. Something that will do some incredible mincing when rocking the blade, and be able to delicately slice meats for better presentation on the plate. (pretty much any sharp knife?)

I would like an edge to last me a few weeks before I have to start thinking about sharpening.



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
I will purchase an End Grain board -- not sure where -- online seems like the best bet, but I'll have to test out some sizes. The board will be a thick beast around 2inch minimum would be great. I will purchase a second board made of rubber for meats. This is to replace our tiny wood and plastic board

I don't sharpen currently. (part of the problem)

I will sharpen my babies.

I will purchase stones.



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

Since I have not used high end knifes I have no idea what to look for. Must I just go to a specialty shop and 'test' out the feel of the handles? What are these knives worth, seriously? I am biased to traditional forged knives because I love the art of knife making -- therefore I am hesitant of modern steels because I feel I am being ripped off by purchasing ready made knives, from high tech alloy steel, rather than paying for the blood and sweat of the bladesmith.

I know it is not smart for me to dive into the deep end, therefore I am asking for help as to where to start because I want this knife to be artistic and functional. I will purchase stones first and begin to sharpen the knives we use most of the time right now. I don't know where to order a good endgrain board because I am not knowledgeable as to knowing what 'better or best' is. Lastly before I buy my knife/knives, if I am just getting 1 or 2 then do you recommend a Saya (dont they come with) and if so where do I get one, or how do I store them. I wanted to display on a magnetic block.

If you can, check out Japanese Knife Imports and/or talk to Jon (I believe you can call them as well). He'll be your yoda. As for handles, it's a good idea to try out western and japanese style handles; they're both nice, but different and you'll probably have a preference. I went from tough german knives to jknives a few years back and there is a learning curve so there's something to be said about not spending a huge amount on your first knife and learning to use it and maintain it.

I like the Fujiwara Nashiji Gyuto 240mm. It is a stout knife and gives one a confident feeling while only weighing 6.6 oz and being quite thin close to the edge. It is very hard HRC 64-65 so one has to assume it will chip if abused. It is stainless clad and must be wiped down carefully on the edge and on the spine and heal after each handling. This knife has a more rustic pear skin finish so it doesn't meet your requirement for a mirrored pretty look. It costs about $400 which is a lot for a first knife. I almost ruined the 180mm Santoku version of this knife when I forgot to wipe down the spine and rust formed between the stainless cladding. I had this knife re-handled which added weight but helped the balance a lot.

A more logical choice for you may be the Kikuichi Performance TKC 240mm Gyuto. It has a Western handle, but that could be upgraded with some nice stabilized burl wood later on.

FWIW, the original Ichimonji TKC is quite a bit cheaper than the performance TKC if you want to go that route. It comes out to be ~ $140 shipping included, but you do need to order directly from Japan.

I think I answered my own questions by accepting the fact I need to get stones and fix what I have and then buy what I need from there.

Currently I'm on the Korin page and I am thinking a 1000/6000 combo to practice on my stainless knives. Then if I end up getting a mirrored zdp-189 (or anything else that looks beautiful) do I need the 8000 stone to polish it?

Lovelynella said:

I think I answered my own questions by accepting the fact I need to get stones and fix what I have and then buy what I need from there.

Currently I'm on the Korin page and I am thinking a 1000/6000 combo to practice on my stainless knives. Then if I end up getting a mirrored zdp-189 (or anything else that looks beautiful) do I need the 8000 stone to polish it?

Click to expand...

a 6,000 grit will give you a mirror finish on the edge. You can strop after that.

rico said:

a 6,000 grit will give you a mirror finish on the edge. You can strop after that.

Click to expand...

Thankyou. I figured that being gentle at 6000 I could get a mirror finish. I'll be getting my stones and stick to my plan - otherwise I would have already spend over $1k and maybe be sad because I know the performance different between things like these are unique to the user.

I want that beautiful knife, but I need to strategize a 2 knife combo to get a cheap workhorse $100-150 that would be perfect and my beautiful $500 mirrored baby that I use when I want to precise. If i dont buy what I want -- not what i need --- then I'll always be hurting inside

There are definitely things that I don't cut with my knives (frozen food, bones, etc...) that said, I don't consider any of my gyutos to be fragile. Which knives are you looking at that you are worried about?

Shiny stainless knives and Kurouchi carbon steel knives are kind of opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to care.

How did you chip the tip of the Cutco? If you're the type of person who doesn't immediately wipe down their knives after use, or leaves things in the sink, I don't think a carbon steel knife or a Japanese handled knife would be a good choice.

mhlee said:

Shiny stainless knives and Kurouchi carbon steel knives are kind of opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to care.

How did you chip the tip of the Cutco? If you're the type of person who doesn't immediately wipe down their knives after use, or leaves things in the sink, I don't think a carbon steel knife or a Japanese handled knife would be a good choice.

Click to expand...

My parents chipped the tip on the chef's knife during the 15 or so years we have had the set.

I made a new thread posting my thoughts and asking for help exposing myself to what I can purchase between $500-800 so I can make a better decision on what I like aesthetically.

I will be keeping the CutCo knives we have left and practice my sharpening on them before I go all in.

ZDP-189 is a high-carbon stainless steel (http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=zdp-189) but I do not think it is commonly referred to as a "carbon" steel. If you want a true carbon steel (albiet iron clad) with a polished finish, check out the Konosuke Fujiyama. Also, you can custom-order the Mizuno line with a polished finish from Japanese Chef Knives. Back to ZDP-189, I would advise against it unless you know what you're getting into. Its super-hard and highly abrasion resistant--sharpening it is nothing like sharpening a CutCo.

maiko said:

sharpening it is nothing like sharpening a CutCo.

Click to expand...

LOL, not sure what sharpening a cutco is like but I'd be willing to bet there's not much like sharpening a cutco...

chinacats said:

LOL, not sure what sharpening a cutco is like but I'd be willing to bet there's not much like sharpening a cutco...

Click to expand...

i was referring to the relative softness of the cutco steel. also, i think cutcos are hollow ground with a pretty small grind, which could make sharpening interesting.

maiko said:

i was referring to the relative softness of the cutco steel. also, i think cutcos are hollow ground with a pretty small grind, which could make sharpening interesting.

Click to expand...

Silly Rabbit, that's why they make pull-thru sharpeners

maiko said:

i was referring to the relative softness of the cutco steel. also, i think cutcos are hollow ground with a pretty small grind, which could make sharpening interesting.

Click to expand...

You are correct. It was hard for me to get the primary edge fixed on the chef's knife because I would raise it too high. After much effort I now accept that I have to lay the blade very flat and work with the knife geometry because its not flat like the Santoku, that was easier to sharpen. I never knew our knife was so dull, but I theorize that a 600 or less stone would have helped speed up fixing the edge. I need to go back and evenly grind away the edge and work on the finishing stone more because I probably push too hard. They came out sharp enough to shave your finger tips, but I doubt it would slice my finger off -- back to work.

I know, at one time, Cutcos had a double edge, which was why they needed to be factory resharpened.

mhlee said:

I know, at one time, Cutcos had a double edge, which was why they needed to be factory resharpened.

Click to expand...

sorry, but what do you mean by "double edge"?

expensive knife....

daveb said:

The first one always takes some time to determine what is important to you. The next 100 are easier:cool2:.

Click to expand...

Oh, how very true...

In all seriousness, for the benefit of the OP, this happens because your knowledge about knives increases during the time it takes to go through / acquire that many knives and your knowledge about your own preferences increases as well. It's not just one or the other but both that makes it really easy after a while to figure out whether something's just plain cool, or cool-and-I-really-want-it.... or, unfortunately, just not cool at all.