How to Get SS Knives Really Sharp?

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designdog

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I have been involved with Japanese knives for several years now, starting with a Mizuno Tanrenjo gyuto back in 2008. As would be expected, I have developed quite a collection knives, most of which are carbon, but also some Ginsan. As my collection grew I also grew my sharpening skills. Like many, I started with Chosera stones, then added stones from Maxsim and Jon, and other synthetics. Sometime last year I got into Japanese naturals, and now have a really good collection of those stones. Pretty much sharpen exclusively with Jnats now.

Lately I have developed an interest in the Western knife makers. I’ve acquired a couple of Devins, a Marko, and Ealy, HHH, and Rodrigue. These were second hand knives, except for a Marko which is on the way. Unlike my carbon knives, these are mostly AEB-L, and therein lies my problem: I just can’t seem to get them as sharp as my carbon knives.

My typical sharpening sequence is as follows: Aoto, Mid Polish (Ohira Suita, Shinden Suita, etc.), Final Polish (Nakayama Tomae). My process is a reducing number of strokes on one side, flip it over and repeat on the other. Usually 25, 20, 15, 10, 5. Of course I am eyeballing and feeling the edge along the way, but I like a framework in my mind. I finish by stropping on horse.

I have tried this with my SS knives. I do get a burr with my harder Aoto, or an Aizu. (I have lower grit stones, natural and synthetic, but dont really use them unless I have a problem.) I also acknowledge that the feeling of SS knives on the Jnats is not as pleasant as carbon. And they are just not getting as sharp.

So, what to do? I can simply use the same stones and up the repetitions (significantly) on the polishing stones (I am getting a burr on the Aotos) or I can revert to synthetics. In that case I would use the Gesshin 2, 4, and 8k, and maybe the Chosera 10k?

I am not going crazy with these American knives, as there seems to be a predilection to exotic handles and (in my mind) unbelievably glitzy Damascus. But I do like the “plain” ones, appreciate the heat treatment, profile and grind. Just want to be able to sharpen them!
 
designdog said:
I have been involved with Japanese knives for several years now, starting with a Mizuno Tanrenjo gyuto back in 2008. As would be expected, I have developed quite a collection knives, most of which are carbon, but also some Ginsan. As my collection grew I also grew my sharpening skills. Like many, I started with Chosera stones, then added stones from Maxsim and Jon, and other synthetics. Sometime last year I got into Japanese naturals, and now have a really good collection of those stones. Pretty much sharpen exclusively with Jnats now.

Lately I have developed an interest in the Western knife makers. I’ve acquired a couple of Devins, a Marko, and Ealy, HHH, and Rodrigue. These were second hand knives, except for a Marko which is on the way. Unlike my carbon knives, these are mostly AEB-L, and therein lies my problem: I just can’t seem to get them as sharp as my carbon knives.

My typical sharpening sequence is as follows: Aoto, Mid Polish (Ohira Suita, Shinden Suita, etc.), Final Polish (Nakayama Tomae). My process is a reducing number of strokes on one side, flip it over and repeat on the other. Usually 25, 20, 15, 10, 5. Of course I am eyeballing and feeling the edge along the way, but I like a framework in my mind. I finish by stropping on horse.

I have tried this with my SS knives. I do get a burr with my harder Aoto, or an Aizu. (I have lower grit stones, natural and synthetic, but dont really use them unless I have a problem.) I also acknowledge that the feeling of SS knives on the Jnats is not as pleasant as carbon. And they are just not getting as sharp.

So, what to do? I can simply use the same stones and up the repetitions (significantly) on the polishing stones (I am getting a burr on the Aotos) or I can revert to synthetics. In that case I would use the Gesshin 2, 4, and 8k, and maybe the Chosera 10k?

I am not going crazy with these American knives, as there seems to be a predilection to exotic handles and (in my mind) unbelievably glitzy Damascus. But I do like the “plain” ones, appreciate the heat treatment, profile and grind. Just want to be able to sharpen them!
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Hi here as well.
First of all to improve something ( to give some ideas) I would like to see how do you do it.
It depends what ss knife/ steel do you take. PM knives need different stones, then " normal" ss knives. But generally speaking you won't get them that sharp as carbons...[emoji24][emoji24][emoji24].
The best way is to stop on good Aoto sharpening- ss knives have a common feature - due to high chromium content it ( like VG-10) it becomes really sharp for a very limited period of time, then in holds the edge quite long.
PM knives can have good ( better) retention. But you sharpen them better on synthetic stones. All in all- you see the difference between ss and carbons. I would recommend to leave your ss knives for common use, and have your nice carbons for precise tasks.
 
Thanks Andrey — for venturing over here and for your advice. Unfortunately these SS knives are very fine, and very expensive (!) so I want to make them the equal or better of my other carbon knives. I have been thinking: since SS is harder, I should expect to work them a bit harder on the stones. More repetitions. What I am going to try now is a trick I read about here (perhaps Dave Martell?) I will go back to my next-to-last stone, then finish again. In this case the Ohira Suita, and the Nakayama Tomae.

Then, for my next full sharpening round, I will double the reps on the final two stones. May have to work harder on the SS, but should have to sharpen less?:scared4:
 
designdog said:
Thanks Andrey — for venturing over here and for your advice. Unfortunately these SS knives are very fine, and very expensive (!) so I want to make them the equal or better of my other carbon knives. I have been thinking: since SS is harder, I should expect to work them a bit harder on the stones. More repetitions. What I am going to try now is a trick I read about here (perhaps Dave Martell?) I will go back to my next-to-last stone, then finish again. In this case the Ohira Suita, and the Nakayama Tomae.

Then, for my next full sharpening round, I will double the reps on the final two stones. May have to work harder on the SS, but should have to sharpen less?:scared4:
Click to expand...

Yours ss are harder? PM steel? Important to know the type of the steel and the brand.
Only PM is harder then good carbons. You can go mad doing same as on carbons.
Please check it.
According to the steel type/ hardness you should move in your progression vers harder or softer stones. If yours are hard, do it on hard stones. I have experimented a lot with ss knives as well. The most " hard to defeat" are the PM knives. Waiting for your reply
 
BTW- on hard ss knives some false stropping can round the edge= loose of sharpness
Tell me pls- is that like coming from med stones to finer stones in that knives means to get " soapy" edge?
 
I've found with my stainless knives, they just prefer synths. I tend to stop most of them around 4k (Gesshin 4k) and then strop on felt. They get pesky burrs /wire edges as well, which can be hard to detect and even harder to remove. The finer you go on stainless with naturals especially (in my limited experience) the more likely you are to make a very good synth edge worse. I do not have many stones all around, but found I just prefer carbon for some tasks, and stainless for others. Natural stones for some, synths for others. If you had a ton of naturals, as we've read on the jnat posts, try them all and see what works. I (personally) haven't yet found a natural that does to stainless exactly what it does to carbon.

Also, plus one for Andrey's observation that some stainless steels (including your inbound Rodrigue) get wicked sharp, lose a touch of sharpness, and then hang around at like 90% for a long time. If you like to operate exclusively in the margins of 90-100% sharp, stainless is probably not as good as carbon. But you can have a knife that doesn't rust, doesn't need much attention, and can stay really sharp for a long long time at that 90%. Definitely curious to see how you feel about the Rodrigue with respect to sharpening!
 
skiajl6297 said:
I've found with my stainless knives, they just prefer synths. I tend to stop most of them around 4k (Gesshin 4k) and then strop on felt. They get pesky burrs /wire edges as well, which can be hard to detect and even harder to remove. The finer you go on stainless with naturals especially (in my limited experience) the more likely you are to make a very good synth edge worse. I do not have many stones all around, but found I just prefer carbon for some tasks, and stainless for others. Natural stones for some, synths for others. If you had a ton of naturals, as we've read on the jnat posts, try them all and see what works. I (personally) haven't yet found a natural that does to stainless exactly what it does to carbon.

Also, plus one for Andrey's observation that some stainless steels (including your inbound Rodrigue) get wicked sharp, lose a touch of sharpness, and then hang around at like 90% for a long time. If you like to operate exclusively in the margins of 90-100% sharp, stainless is probably not as good as carbon. But you can have a knife that doesn't rust, doesn't need much attention, and can stay really sharp for a long long time at that 90%. Definitely curious to see how you feel about the Rodrigue with respect to sharpening!
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You confirm my idea. Exactly what i think. [emoji120]🏻[emoji106]🏻[emoji111]🏻️
Different knives- different tasks.
SS are normally so, as discussed here, no need to fight with nature.
 
Its hard to argue with personal imperical experience but I beg to differ Andrey.

In my experience, properly HT modern stainless steels are not hard to sharpen. Now I do agree that the carbon knives I've owned (Takeda, Yusuki, Moritaka, Carter, Takayuki, Tadafusa, Heiji, forge craft...) sharpen quicker than stainless, for me the process is the same though.

My stainless knives are Kono Ginsan, DT ITL AEBL, Marko AEBL, Sakai Yusuki, Kono HD (semi), Kramer WS Meiji in SG2, Shun, Mac.

I keep these babies screaming with a dry strop of Dave Martells Takenono. I prefer that stone even to his hard felt strop. Something magical about that stone and quality stainless, its really an under rated high grit IMO. My reference sharpness is quietely slicing through folded thin phone book paper.
 
Definitely agree that 4-5k is the stopping point for stainless, and double bevels for me in general. I even find that over stropping on my last stone (gesshin 4k, or red AOTO for double bevel) will make the edge too "perfect" or "slippery", so ill go back to sharpening back and forth motion a few times on both sides to "messy" up the edge. This gives it that carbon toothiness. I guess since the modern stainless is so compact and consistent it makes over polishing easy.
 
Mucho Bocho, don't take it wrong, but the point here is not that SS is harder to sharpen on jnats? By the way, i'm curious about the Takenono. How do you compare it with the 8K Kitayama?
 
Oh I guess I didn't get that point. I thought we were talking in categorical terms. I haven't messed with a kitayama but the takenono sits in the kitchen for quick access. Maybe Dave will chime in
 
I like to strop on balsa with 1 micron diamond spray after I finish a stone progression. I can't tell the difference between carbon and say my Devin ITK after that.

Also have you thought about lowering the angle a bit more for the stainless, steels like aeb-l properly heat treated can easily take a 10 degree angle (possibly with a one sided microbevel a la Jon's video...)
 
Not sure what can be added to the above. However, I like AV and S####'s thoughts:

Andrey V said:
ss knives have a common feature - due to high chromium content it ( like VG-10) it becomes really sharp for a very limited period of time, then in holds the edge quite long.
Click to expand...
skiajl6297 said:
Also, plus one for Andrey's observation that some stainless steels (including your inbound Rodrigue) get wicked sharp, lose a touch of sharpness, and then hang around at like 90% for a long time. If you like to operate exclusively in the margins of 90-100% sharp, stainless is probably not as good as carbon.
Click to expand...

On a micro-level I can imagine it like this, with the greater mix in the SS able to hold a shape around the edge and provide that '90%'. (Interesting ideas with the figures.) However, compared to in C knives, in SS the purer carbon structures aren't there as much to support and extend to the very edge. And so maybe if you can get a very sharp initial '100%-type' edge with your SS after sharpening, if possible, then the sharpest 10% bit will not hold as well and retreat quicker than you'd expect, as the sharpest reaches won't have the same support, but then after you'll be left with a strong 90% basis that lasts well but won't have the same cutting edge. I'd expect a C edge not to dull in the same way; when SS erodes it might keep a rounder or more uniform shape, due to the mix of molecules 'filling in' the gaps (dear, I hope real scientists aren't reading this and having a laugh...) whereas C-steel might provide more rigid bits that tend to break off rather than wear down. Something like that.

If you feel you can't get to that '100%' I don't know what to say, DD, other than your experimentation ideas sound good along with the others. I'm actually very limited with SS myself. Stropping on a stone, as opposed to leather, also sounds promising. Maybe the composition of SS means it's more likely to get too polished due to some types of stropping?

Mucho Bocho said:
I keep these babies screaming with a dry strop of Dave Martells Takenono.
Click to expand...

Jogged my memory. Is the Takenono - or 'Takenoko' isn't it? - the same as the Arashiyama 6k? I remember reading something somewhere. I've got one, an Arashiyama, and have tried some strops as you said and, yes, it does seem good for that. Nice one.

(Arashiyama & Takenoko: Makes sense too. The Arashiyama area in Kyoto is known for its Bamboo Forest and 'takenoko' means bamboo shoot. Sounds like a connection.)
 
This thread is a great follow-up to the one with the knife expert talking about how much better stainless is than carbon. :biggrin:

To the OP, my guess is that you're leaving a small wire edge that you're having a hard time detecting...harder to pick up with the finishers you're using.
 
I think I answered my question. Simply a matter of more strokes on the stones with SS than carbon. As mentioned above, I went back to it, and the result is as sharp as any of my carbon knives.

Some comments per the above:

Everyone has his favorite stone(s). Never much cared for my Takenono (Kitayama) liked the Gesshin and JNS better.

I always finish with a leather strop, so no wire edges. Also been using Dave's felt burr remover thingie.

I think it's just a matter of "ebo greeese..."
 
Therefore: longer-lasting though not as sharp edges, and longer-lasting sharpening sessions!

chinacats said:
This thread is a great follow-up to the one with the knife expert talking about how much better stainless is than carbon. :biggrin:
Click to expand...

Missed it. Which is that one?
 
It's already been said but I'll reiterate.
Stainless is harder to deburr.
I've had success with deburring a little on every stone I raise a burr on. Then really go slow and focus on the final finishing stone. It will take more effort to deburr than carbon which seems to just fall off sometimes lol.
 
Geo87 said:
It's already been said but I'll reiterate.
Stainless is harder to deburr.
I've had success with deburring a little on every stone I raise a burr on. Then really go slow and focus on the final finishing stone. It will take more effort to deburr than carbon which seems to just fall off sometimes lol.
Click to expand...

I agree. But I also think Jnats, especially the "higher grit" stones, have less tendency to create burrs in the first place. Although they do sharpen quite well. It is the mystery of the slurry, or, as our good friend Takeshi calls it, "natural mystics."
 
Generally with stainless knives I will spend more time on a low grit and medium grit stone than I would sharpening carbon, and obviously making sure to deburr( I use felt for this) before i go to the next stone in the progression. I strop more also. But dont become reliant on how long the process is taking, just check the edge with you fingers making sure the edge is as sharp as it should be.
 
All good advice. Going to go back to synth on my next run, just to compare.

Let's get back to the Takenoko, since I have one. Can you describe what "dry stropping" on this stone is about? And what stones do you proceed this with?

Thanks.
 
Asteger said:
Therefore: longer-lasting though not as sharp edges, and longer-lasting sharpening sessions!



Missed it. Which is that one?
Click to expand...


You can find it here.

Your first comment sums it all up quite well imo. :biggrin:

Cheers
 
labor of love said:
Generally with stainless knives I will spend more time on a low grit and medium grit stone than I would sharpening carbon, and obviously making sure to deburr( I use felt for this) before i go to the next stone in the progression. I strop more also. But dont become reliant on how long the process is taking, just check the edge with you fingers making sure the edge is as sharp as it should be.
Click to expand...

Agree on one important point: DD said he uses the system of 25/29/15/10 whatever strokes on each side. Can be, sure.
I think the best way ( though everyone can believe in his own way) is still to inspect the edge with your fingers.
Nothing says more then this. Maybe tongue, it's more sensitive, but licking the blade would be dangerous [emoji12][emoji12].
As to me i never count strokes- i just look on the blade and touch it. That's all. When satisfied- stop.
 
Andrey V said:
Agree on one important point: DD said he uses the system of 25/29/15/10 whatever strokes on each side. Can be, sure.
I think the best way ( though everyone can believe in his own way) is still to inspect the edge with your fingers.
Nothing says more then this. Maybe tongue, it's more sensitive, but licking the blade would be dangerous [emoji12][emoji12].
As to me i never count strokes- i just look on the blade and touch it. That's all. When satisfied- stop.
Click to expand...

This. While I am no accomplished sharpener, I get decent edges which seem to get a little better each time I sharpener.

I took a knife sharpening course with Jon when in LA last year and the number of strokes never came up, his advice was to continuously check the burr, make sure it is consistent along the length of the knife. Once it is, you are the read to do the other side.
 
Sorry for the poor explanation. I just use the "number routine" as a guideline. Most certainly I eyeball and feel each edge as I go through the routine.

"Feeling the burr" gets a lot harder as you move up the progression, particularly with natural stones. There really is no burr, at least that I can easily feel. With my "system" I am certain that I never under sharpen. Over sharpening is never a problem.:evil grin:

Now, I have learned that with SS knives I will have to up my number of reps in this system. Double? Probably not, but I will start there and back down, using my fingers and eyeballs to judge...
 
designdog said:
Sorry for the poor explanation. I just use the "number routine" as a guideline. Most certainly I eyeball and feel each edge as I go through the routine.

"Feeling the burr" gets a lot harder as you move up the progression, particularly with natural stones. There really is no burr, at least that I can easily feel. With my "system" I am certain that I never under sharpen. Over sharpening is never a problem.:evil grin:

Now, I have learned that with SS knives I will have to up my number of reps in this system. Double? Probably not, but I will start there and back down, using my fingers and eyeballs to judge...
Click to expand...

👍🏻
Eyeballs are the best balls for this matter😜😜😜
 
ThEoRy said:
The more you sharpen your knife, the more rapidly you erode it's useful life.
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As I just turned 70, and have about 50 of these things, knife erosion is not a major concern for me...
 
designdog said:
As I just turned 70, and have about 50 of these things, knife erosion is not a major concern for me...
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Touché!

I sharpen too much because I like to try new stuff out. That said, I'm happy it's with nats almost all the time. Not as big of a deal that way. Of course, when people talk about their fav stones you hear a lot of 'speed, speed, speed'. However, I recently got 2-3 new synths to try, and the sudden burr flap flying off my edge seemed almost obscene. My knife seemed to lose a huge slice off its old height just like that. I'm nowhere near 70, but do hope I'll be able to use what I have then - so long as I'm not bored by then. (Should start saving up now for those future knives by Watanabe & Kato's sons and Shigefusa's grandson in order to solve the tedium.)
 
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