Cleaver Questions/Comparison Help

Hey Everyone,

Been using a CCK 1303 for a bit now and really have taken a liking to the Chinese Cleaver style, for some reason I find myself reaching for it more than most of my gyutos. I love how crazy thin this cleaver is and the way it just effortlessly falls through food. That said, I'm interested in trying a cleaver more towards the upper end to see how much performance increase I really get out of it. The main one's I'm looking at are

Sugimoto #6
Suien VC
Ginga Swedish Stainless (BlueWay since Jon is totally out of the Western Handle style one's)

Don't know how many people might have owned these or at least two of them to compare but I would love to hear some impressions on them especially compared to the CCK. Stainless vs. Carbon doesn't matter from a person preference perspective. Performance matters more than a bit of added maintenance but that said I'm open to any of these.

FYI I have read Andy777's cleaver review stuff and while it does mention some stats about the Sugi and Suien it doesn't really talk about either relative to the other aside from that he likes the Suien for value cleaver for the masses so to speak....

Thanks!

I used to own Sugimoto #6, as well as a comparable Shibazi cleaver that is similar to CCK 1303. I think you will gain a bit of performance as well as all aroundness because of the tapering design of Sugimoto where it is really thin at the tip and has bit more meat at the heel. Hanldle is the best so far for my personal preference. It is very comfy, and locks into my hand very nicely.

Talking about handle design, I really like rat tail tang in Sugimoto compared with other scale handle Japanese Chukas where it makes overall weight a bit lighter by quite a few grams for the same size blade, as well as making it more blade heavy.

Maintaining is a little painful due to the amount of exposed cladded iron, so I sold it because of this very reason. My two chukas at the moment are Heiji Semi Stainless and a Shig KU, plus I have a carbon kau kong Shibai bone chopper when I need to hack up meat and bone.

Maintaining it is a non-factor for me because if I ever find it too reactive and annoying because of it I would just force a patina on it. I figure if I have handled Fuji FKH's and Misono Swedish there isn't much that would be a bother

Plus I bet you could make a pretty sweet force patina design with that much work area!

Thanks for the comments on the Sugi

Love my sugimoto #6 just a great knife it will never leave my kit.

I was in your spot a couple of years ago- got a CCK 1303 and like it- what is the best upgrade path?
I tried a Suien VC. Very nice steel, but way too much belly for me. Then I got an Ashi Hamono cleaver in white #2. Heaven! Nice and thin, great handle, steel holds an edge for a long time, easy to sharpen very sharp, 61-62 Rockwell, not chippy at all.
Haven't used a Sugimoto, but I find it hard to imagine you wouldn't be pleased with one or the other. The Ashi #6 in carbon costs something like $215 plus shipping direct from Ashi Hamono

Thanks for the comments, the thing about the Suien belly is something I didn't know and definitely didn't pick up from the pictures I have been looking at on a couple different websites. Pricing on that Ashi sounds quite stellar as well

The Sugi is $300+ so that price for the Ashi is appealing for sure.

Vegetable cleavers are foreign to users of western style chef knifes. The shape is common, but they feel awkward, unwieldly and heavy to a person accustomed to a western chef knife. Before somebody spent a lot of money on cleaver, it was sugested that person start with a CCK cleaver. If they wanted to find out more about cleavers the next step was to try the Suien cleaver. The Suien allows a person to try a full size cleaver at a reasonable price. Full size cleavers are roughly 215 - 230mm x 90 - 110mm and can weigh 400 to 500 grams. After the Suien its searching for a knife with desired features: Ease of sharpening, edge retention, thin or medium edge, etc....

Sugimoto #6 has a very noticable distal taper. The tip is very thin, which makes it good for slicing. The heel is suited for chopping. The Sugi is not a thin slicer such as the CCK or Suien.

The Sugi is close to the ideal size and weight for a cleaver. It feels light and agile for its size. The rounded handle is very comfortable. The spine and part of the choil are rounded. The Sugi feels likes it locks into your hand. It's easy to see why the Sugi made so many appearances on Iron Chef. It sharpens easily and has good edge retention. The down side of the Sugi is its rough fit and finish. Cleavers in general are known for rough fit and finish, the Sugi is on the rougher side. It seems to be a knife that was made to work.

Cleavers that have been mentioned as being similar in cutting performance to CCK are the Mizuno and Tadatsuna the inox versions. JCK has the Mizuno and Aframes has the Tadatsuna.

Good luck in your search,

Jay

How do you find the Suien in regards to cutting performance vs. the CCK for example?

I appreciate your words on the Sugimoto, that definitely is helpful in my decision and overall thought process on the matter. Thanks!

I don't use a cleaver often but when I do it's a Suien. Had a CCK 13?? but found it unwieldy, even for a cleaver. The Suien has some belly but not enough to impact performance. In fact I could see from the patina where the previous user cut with it and it works very well there.

The CCK has so many configurations available that it would be difficult to do a simple comparison of CCK to another brand.

Just to add some data-points to the hive-mind, here's a side-by-side photo of the CCK 1303 and the Suien VC:


I've read that the older Suien VC cleavers (like the one Andy7777 reviewed) were flatter than newer production.

And here's my Ashi Hamono:


It has a larger, chunkier handle than the Suien. I'd love to try the Sugimoto sometime. Passaround, anyone? :biggrin:

SolidSnake03 said:

How do you find the Suien in regards to cutting performance vs. the CCK for example?

I appreciate your words on the Sugimoto, that definitely is helpful in my decision and overall thought process on the matter. Thanks!

Click to expand...

When I got into Japanese knives, CCK's were not readily available. Andy was able to purchase them at a local store in Utah of all places. My understandng is that he introduced the forums to CCK. By the time CCK's were being imported, I was well into my cleaver collection, so I never picked one up.

I picked up a Suien from Ebay, to learn how to sharpen. It was a slicing cleaver, thin from tip to heel, instead of having a pronounced distal taper. Even with early sharpening attempts, it did get sharp and was a good cutter. Fit and finish were on the rough side, but that is true of most cleavers.

The Suien is a good knife to try out a full size cleaver without spending a lot of money. With a new handle and some work on the blade rounding the spine and choil. The choil on mine was really rough. I think I would be happy with the Suien as my main knife.

Jay

Thanks!

Daveb: I was specifically referring to the CCK 1303, I have mentioned it in my original post as my point of reference being the cleaver I currently use and have quite some experience/time with. Sorry I didn't make that clearer in further posts, I thought people would refer back to the original post if they had questions/needed more info....

Colorado_Cutter: Able to compare the Ashi and the Suien? If you had to pick one which and why? My main interest is in performance and easy of use/sharpening. I'm fine with something that is a bit reactive or needs some choil and spine rounding.

Jaybett: Thanks for the works on the Suien! That sounds like something I definitely should try! Working the spine and choil is no trouble for me, at this point I think I've done that to at least a dozen knives, probably closer to two dozen actually.

We're good. (I think) Mine was sold as 1303 but I remember thinking it might be another model - hence the 13?? reference. Light for it's size but to me was quite large, clunky, not at all nimble and somewhat unwieldy. And of course butt ugly.

If you decide to go the CCK route there is a website that's been cited on here that offers the full CCK catalog.

whats your budget?

I had the Ashi, the CCK, and the Suien at the same time. I sold the Suien and CCK and kept the Ashi, and still use the Ashi as my main knife today. I think the Suien steel was great. I don't remember if I did a full sharpening or just touch-ups, but the handle and the profile weren't to my liking, so once I got the Ashi, I sold the Suien pretty quickly, in a package deal with the CCK. I should mention that I really actually LIKED the handle on the CCK, and that the Ashi I have is custom, made with distal taper and thinner/lighter at 400 grams rather than the 470 grams of the stock #6. Same handle and steel as the stock model. If I had to use something other than the Ashi, I'd probably take the larger model CCK (the 1103) over the Suien.

I use an 1103 and believe it to be a bit lighter than most full size cleavers...I can weigh it this evening if interested. I agree that the handle is just about perfect for me. As an sides, while I enjoy a pretty flat profile on my knives, I did add a bit of easing at the tip and heel.

Cheers

Good to know guys!

Daveb: I original got my CCK 1303 at the sale forum for that site, has been my best $30 ever.

Berko: Budget is pretty much $300ish or so with the Sugi being near the top, that said, if something cheaper like the Suien or the Ashi cuts and is more to my liking I have NO problem spending less!

Colorado: Good to hear about that on the Ashi, is your Ashi stainless or carbon? I think they make it in White #2 or stainless? What didn't you like about the Suien handle but liked about the Ashi handle? Thanks!

I'll definitely have to keep the CCK 1103 in mind. The Ashi is looking like a good deal right now too given the JPY to USD conversion rates.

To those that commented on the CCK handle, I agree 100%, I actually really really like it. It seems to fit my hand perfectly and honestly wouldn't trade it out for anything. Sure it looks a bit rough but the feel and fit in my hand is perfect!

SolidSnake03 said:

Good to know guys!
Colorado: Good to hear about that on the Ashi, is your Ashi stainless or carbon? I think they make it in White #2 or stainless? What didn't you like about the Suien handle but liked about the Ashi handle? Thanks!

I'll definitely have to keep the CCK 1103 in mind. The Ashi is looking like a good deal right now too given the JPY to USD conversion rates.

To those that commented on the CCK handle, I agree 100%, I actually really really like it. It seems to fit my hand perfectly and honestly wouldn't trade it out for anything. Sure it looks a bit rough but the feel and fit in my hand is perfect!

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Mine is white #2. The Ashi handle was larger and bulkier; the grip felt better to me than the Suien.

i have a jürgen schanz custom in sb1/niolox, that i prefer over my two ashis and which is in your budget. waiting time was 6 month i think. i also have that small sugimoto in white no.2 and the ht feels better than on my ashi.

Thanks guys! Appreciate the impressions, I do prefer a slightly bigger handle vs. smaller in this case.

Berko: by small Sugi you mean the #6? I thought the #6 was a full sized cleaver therefore there wasn't much "small" about it...

i have the 2 small ones, the cm4030 in stainless, and the 4040 in whiteII.

Read through the whole thread for I do love the cleaver.
I strongly suggest moving up to the 1102 (cck) and think it the natural progression from where you are at. I have had many different maker's chuka bochos and can say that none out performed the mighty and inexpensive 1102 at even 8x the cost. It still is my main knife when it's a tight station and you can afford to give it away to someone you deem worthy. If you have any connection in Hong Kong, they can be had for cheap. Did I mention that I love it!!!

But in all fairness, if you want a serious upgrade and $$ is not a concern, then I would buy the Yoshikane.
Cheers on your quest.

Didnt know sugi made smaller ones like that, neat!

The yoshi is nice for sure, ill look into it

berko said:

i have the 2 small ones, the cm4030 in stainless, and the 4040 in whiteII.

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How do you like your CM 4030? I have one too. The steel is better than any Chinese stainless I have tried. The Sujimoto handles are comfortable. It is a good stainless alternative to a CCK 1303.

Have a lot of experience with Chinese carbons, have sold my carbon cleavers since I retired. They don't do too well sitting on a Magblock here in Hawaii if not used everyday must oil them.

I reach for the Cm4030 quite a bit. After sharpening it sticks in my endgrain.

sugimotos heat treatment is great on both, the stainless and the carbon. mine needed a bit of work on choil and spine, but are just awesome since then. i do use the stainless one a lot at work these days.