magnets in sayas?

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I saw that Blazen sayas have magnets in them to make them secure. Has anyone tried this on their own saya? If so, I was wondering where people place the magnet, and what size/strength they use. Seems like this would keep the blade from moving inside the saya, and that saya pins often go missing. Plus not having a saya pin would make it a bit more sleek, which would be good for making it easier to pack, as well as possibly cleaner from a visual perspective.
I'm hoping to make some sayas this summer (and I don't expect them to be friction fitting), so was curious if anyone has used this feature in their own.
TIA for any input!
 
Friction fit is easier than you think using soft woods. I'd give it a whirl first before trying something like magnets.

I got fed up with not having sayas a couple of months ago and got the friction fit right first try. Since then I've only fubared two. It's nothing I would ever do even part time, but it is a hell of a lot of fun.
 
I suppose that a flat thick paper/ thin type of magents should be used. so as not to have the saya pieces too thick. I hv seen a Wuesthof magnetic blade guard.

Generally.. my wood measurements wld be PLUS 2 to 3mm on top of the knife measurements.

Wld consider it if in case of "overcavity" of the saya to save the piece.

Hv fun..

rgds D
 
I been thinking about adding a magnetic strip material in the saya . Like the ones used in retail packages etc. The idea was to develop one that has a strip on the spine side of the saya to "hold" the knife from the spine .

Just a thought. I would like to hear your ideas of how you are thinking about attaching the magnet to the saya.
 
Friction fit is easier than you think using soft woods. I'd give it a whirl first before trying something like magnets.

I got fed up with not having sayas a couple of months ago and got the friction fit right first try. Since then I've only fubared two. It's nothing I would ever do even part time, but it is a hell of a lot of fun.

Is there a guide or something?
 
I liked saya's with my knives still do. Trouble with saya's at work after a couple years you take enough steel off a blade gets loose as a goose:O
 
I been thinking about adding a magnetic strip material in the saya . Like the ones used in retail packages etc. The idea was to develop one that has a strip on the spine side of the saya to "hold" the knife from the spine .

Just a thought. I would like to hear your ideas of how you are thinking about attaching the magnet to the saya.

i need to see how convex it is and thus determine where the contact area and place the magnetic strip there

a) carve out the saya more by the thickness of the magnetic sheel wch whld be 0.5mm max thickness to 1mm

b) magnet in Front center portion of saya as the blade is thinner and can accomodate the extra depth of the magnetic strip. Long enough to have sufficient grip/strength to prevent knife from slipping out

c)Near the heel portion.. This will call for thicker piece of wood. Not my preferred choice. but it shld be at the balance point so that there is no additional pull ( so i believe)


Need to ascertain size of strip required bearing in mind the weight shape and
I suppose that it has to flushed with the inside of saya so that sliding knife in will not be a problem.

Before gluing.. everything has to be right becos one the strip is in.. you cant further adjust the depth by
filing it down with sandpaper. For my saya making gluing process.. I am testing with rubber band and securing it with rope across the whole length of saya to hold the 2 pieces during the curing of the glue as clamping it makes it too tight. I cld hv sworn that the fitting was right then. Oh well..

Finally.. do consider inserting and gluing a piece of paper thin sheet of wood.. wedge shape to make it friction fit. Softwood is my preference for this.


Just my thoughts...
have fun

and rgds D
 
If I were to to insert magnets into saya I'd probably first try magnetic paper. It's pretty thin ~0.65mm. So I'd cut the exact profile of the knife and glue that magnetic paper to both sides of saya. Never tried that, but it sounds easier than using regular neodymium magnets.
 
I have 1 Blazen with friction saya, 2 with magnetic.
The friction saya, leaves lines to the soft cladding material, the magnetic leaves none.

The magnet is on the right side, not throughout the whole width, but on the letters height, approximatelly 1,3cm wide, and running almost all length.

Wood is carved and the magnet is stuck inside. The saya is normal size. I cannot tell if it is a magnet paper or some other kind of thin magnet, but you can see that the wood is carved inside.

I tried to take a photo,so you can see what I see, but I couldnt manage to take a satisfactory one
 
this is certainly very interesting, I have a few magnets that are thin enough, I will see if I can do something like so. I am a bit againest friction fit on sanmai knife with soft cladding since it is extremely easy to scratch the blade (tell me about mirror polish!).

magnets sounds very interesting.
 
I am a bit againest friction fit on sanmai knife with soft cladding since it is extremely easy to scratch the blade (tell me about mirror polish!).

magnets sounds very interesting.

I messed around with magnets a bit using little rare earth button magnets. Loved the idea but after a few experiments that I didn't like, I went back to friction fit.

To your fears of scratches and keithsalty's concern about fit over time-- I had the same concerns but found a method to minimize both problems. I'll try and find some pics, or take some, to throw up in a new thread but the quick explanation is two parts.

First, I always glue my sayas together with hide glue instead of wood glues or epoxys. Hide glue is reversible, plenty strong, and, if you want to separate the pieces, it breaks along the glue line without taking the wood fibers with it. By using hide glue I can open up my sayas down the road and make adjustments as needed without a lot of difficulty.

the second step is to glue a softwood veneer "runner" or "rail" inside the saya, also using hide glue. This strip becomes the contact point for the friction fit. I soften and blend the edges of this strip into to the rest of the saya cavity and carefully sand to very high grit... woods like balsa or basswood are not likely to scratch soft cladding. And for fit, over time, if fit changes, this piece can be removed and replaced.

Softwood sayas are relatively easy to carve and friction fit. Figured hardwoods can be another story. I came up with my method after struggling to carve really dense hardwoods for friction fits. They were brutal to carve accurately, hard on the tools...and always left me concerned about whether they'd scratch my knives or how they'd fare over time. Also didn't much like the idea of spending lots of time making an heirloom saya that might not fit down the road, or harmed my knives versus protecting them.
 
Thanks very much for the info, the horse hide thread was very insightful and I will definitely give it a try!

Cheers
James

I messed around with magnets a bit using little rare earth button magnets. Loved the idea but after a few experiments that I didn't like, I went back to friction fit.

To your fears of scratches and keithsalty's concern about fit over time-- I had the same concerns but found a method to minimize both problems. I'll try and find some pics, or take some, to throw up in a new thread but the quick explanation is two parts.

First, I always glue my sayas together with hide glue instead of wood glues or epoxys. Hide glue is reversible, plenty strong, and, if you want to separate the pieces, it breaks along the glue line without taking the wood fibers with it. By using hide glue I can open up my sayas down the road and make adjustments as needed without a lot of difficulty.

the second step is to glue a softwood veneer "runner" or "rail" inside the saya, also using hide glue. This strip becomes the contact point for the friction fit. I soften and blend the edges of this strip into to the rest of the saya cavity and carefully sand to very high grit... woods like balsa or basswood are not likely to scratch soft cladding. And for fit, over time, if fit changes, this piece can be removed and replaced.

Softwood sayas are relatively easy to carve and friction fit. Figured hardwoods can be another story. I came up with my method after struggling to carve really dense hardwoods for friction fits. They were brutal to carve accurately, hard on the tools...and always left me concerned about whether they'd scratch my knives or how they'd fare over time. Also didn't much like the idea of spending lots of time making an heirloom saya that might not fit down the road, or harmed my knives versus protecting them.
 
Thanks very much for the info, the horse hide thread was very insightful and I will definitely give it a try!

Cheers
James

Glad to help. I like the saya's you've got up in your sub forum.
 
I messed around with magnets a bit using little rare earth button magnets. Loved the idea but after a few experiments that I didn't like, I went back to friction fit.

Curious to hear about what you tried, and what you didn't like about the various results. I was thinking of trying a rare earth magnet or two somewhere along the spine.

FWIW, my plan is to make a three-piece saya, with a thin sheet of basswood in the middle. While I admire the craft of a chiseled saya, I don't have the skills or time to put into that.
 
Curious to hear about what you tried, and what you didn't like about the various results. I was thinking of trying a rare earth magnet or two somewhere along the spine.
FWIW, my plan is to make a three-piece saya, with a thin sheet of basswood in the middle. While I admire the craft of a chiseled saya, I don't have the skills or time to put into that.

Todd, I did my test with a two piece saya that I carved to a near friction fit. (It was intentionally a little loose, but only a little. I wanted the magnets to function more as a replacement for a saya pin then be essential to fit). I had a fancy saya in the works at the time, so I did my tests as a practice run to experiment with different ideas. For magnets I tried two sizes of rare earth magnets, same thickness but different diameters/strengths.

For install, after carving and testing my saya's fit (I clamp the halves together with spring clamps or small clamps to test fit before gluing). Testing fit as you go this way also makes it much easier to get a good friction fit...After fitting, i opened up the saya halves and routed a channel in the saya about 1/4 inch down from the top of the spine. This channel was done for testing different locations - if I had that figured out I could have just drilled recess holes for each magnet instead of a slot/channel. With the channel I glued the magnets in place with a drop of CA glue (easily popped out with a chisel) to play with different locations.

Rare earth magnets are really strong little beasts....my first problem was finding the right balance between holding the knife in place securely but still being able to easily take it in and out. (Tested by clamping the saya back together and testing how it worked). Placement, I found using a few of the magnets staggered from the midpoint of the blade back to the heal seemed to work best....but I never got a result I was really happy with when it came to giving me a balance of smooth use versus secure holding. Having to push too hard or pull too hard to get the knife in or out was a concern. Didn't want to risk slipping and pushing the cutting edge into the wood. At the same time, if the magnets werent' strong enough they'd be no substitute for a pin. Because I wanted the magnets to be responsible for holding the knife in instead of a pin, I'd intentionally carved my saya a little loose for the purposes of the testing. (I could have gone with a tighter fit, but at that point it would have been friction fit and the magnets wouldn't have added much, I thought).

My second concern was leaving magnets exposed so there could be metal/metal contact. I didn't want to have the softer cladding on a good knife scrape against anything and get scratched in the finished product. my plan, once I figured out placement of magnets, was going to be to recess them and then cover them with a thin wooden plug that i could sand flush. Essentially, burying the magnets in the wood. Using the circular shape, the idea was going to be to just drill holes for each magnet placement once I had it figured out and use a cheap home depot plug cutter bit to infill. When I tested recessing the magnets and covering them in separate tests.. similar to making a magnetic knife rack with hidden magnets, .i found the magnets had to be pretty close to the surface before losing too much bite to be relevant.

all in all, if I was really committed to the idea I'd have gotten a variety of different strength magnets to figure out what worked best and kept at it. I tried two and put a few hours into messing around... so I, by no means want to discourage the idea. I still like the idea, but after the tests I did for myself it wasn't worth more effort to get it right. I already had a process for friction fitting I liked that works.... and re-engineering the idea for magnets wasn't paying enough reward to keep at it. The difficulty getting a balance between smooth entry/exit but secure fit seemed too elusive.

As to friction fitting two part sayas. For what it's worth - it doesn't have to be a huge time sink or master-class project. If you stick with softwoods that carve easily, it's pretty quick and painless if you have a sharp chisel and a little patience. You have to have some proficiency with carving with a chisel and working with the wood grains to stay accurate.... but it's not so bad to fear going for it. Also, if you don't have time, you can always over-carve and insert a veneer strip inside the saya to make the difference up. That "rail" can be sanded back more easily than carving and you can hone in on a perfect fit. I actually use that "rail" process on purpose for dense hardwoods because it insures I have a softer (less likely to scratch) wood against my knife.
 
Not sure if this helps any but kikuichi makes magnetic sayas. Getting ahold of one may help in finding the best way. I have one if you want to check it out in person. I live in NW DC. works really well and is a great balance between fitting properly and being easily removable. I just wish it was the same shape as my knife.
 
Hey Livlif, thanks for the offer, I might take you up on that. Saw some pics online--I'm guessing the magnets are inside. Do you have a sense of where they are in the saya? I'm guessing I'm not allowed to dissect the saya to determine how it was constructed . . .
 
Hey Livlif, thanks for the offer, I might take you up on that. Saw some pics online--I'm guessing the magnets are inside. Do you have a sense of where they are in the saya? I'm guessing I'm not allowed to dissect the saya to determine how it was constructed . . .

If you could make me one of the ones you plan to construct, I'll give the saya to do as you want with it.
 
I'm a fan of magnetic says. I wish someone sold generic magnetized sayas like the ones that come with Blazens. The last time I checked with Drew at Epicurean Edge, the separately sold Ryusen sayas were not magnetized. I just looked up the Kikuichi magnetic sayas. It seems like a nice utilitarian general purpose saya. It's a shame there's only two sizes. A magnetic says is only good for temporary use. I don't think I would trust a knief to stay in a magnetic says for long periods of time. I think there would be possible oxidation if there was some moisture trappage.
 
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