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parody

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Hi all

I'm after my next knife, a small Japanese petty knife in the 12 ish cm range. I don't want to spend a fortune on this one, up to £100 say if there is a good reason to. But all the knives in this price range seem to share a very common construction of vg10 core and either plain laminated of Damascus style cladding. I'm not a massive fan of the latter, have tested some in the shops and I found them quite sticky on the wider blades. Maybe not an issue on a smaller knife. Finding hard to choose between the shortlist, given only one is available locally to test.

So far the following are shortlisted:

Same apart from aesthetics:
https://www.steamer.co.uk/m/brands/brand_yaxell/yaxell_ran_12cm_utility_knife.htm
https://www.steamer.co.uk/m/brands/brand_yaxell/yaxell_tsuchimon_12cm_utility_knife.htm

https://cuttingedgeknives.co.uk/brands/sakai-takayuki/damascus-series/petty-5-135mm

http://www.millyskitchenstore.co.uk/TamahaganeSan12cmUtilityKnifeSN-1108-Product-13743.html

http://www.knivesandtools.co.uk/en/pt/-miyabi-5000dp-shotoh-13-cm-34182-131-by-zwilling.htm

I know there will be some votes for this but I already have a dp paring and I have a thing about trying different knives!
http://www.knivesandtools.co.uk/en/pt/-tojiro-dp-3-layers-chefs-knife-12cm.htm


LOCATION
UK

KNIFE TYPE
petty / utility

Are you right or left handed?
Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Western handle

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
100-135mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
Yes

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
£100

KNIFE USE

Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Hard and soft veg, fruit, small cuts of fish / meat


What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Pro cook professional range (x50 I think)


Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use?
Pinch


What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/2023-Kitchen-Knife-Glossary#cuttingmotion]LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Push cut, chop, slice


What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)


Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?


KNIFE MAINTENANCE

Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Wood, edge Grain

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes - sharp maker
 
Ashi Hamono Ginga swedish stainless (AEB-L, rumored) petty 120mm

http://www.ashihamono.com/products/gin_petty.html

Site will be in Japanese but your browser should translate. Many people here have ordered from them direct with very positive experiences. Make sure to select stainless and wa (Japanese) handle. The 120mm petty sells right now for 8720 JPY, which is about $70 USD or £45.

Jon sells these too but it looks like the petties are currently out of stock.
 
i think OP pref'd western handle. i would chose the gesshin (same maker as the ashi) ginga for the harder heat treat and purported better f&f -- and it is currently showing in stock with Jon.

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/gesshin-ginga-120mm-stainless-petty.html

separately, i would urge you to re-consider the sharp-maker as your primary sharpening tool. love it for my utility folders, but i'm able do put a much better edge on my kitchen knives using whetstones. ymmv.

chiffonodd said:
Ashi Hamono Ginga swedish stainless (AEB-L, rumored) petty 120mm

http://www.ashihamono.com/products/gin_petty.html

Site will be in Japanese but your browser should translate. Many people here have ordered from them direct with very positive experiences. Make sure to select stainless and wa (Japanese) handle. The 120mm petty sells right now for 8720 JPY, which is about $70 USD or £45.

Jon sells these too but it looks like the petties are currently out of stock.
Click to expand...
 
maiko said:
i think OP pref'd western handle.
Click to expand...

Thanks for catching my mistake, Maiko. Sorry OP!

+1 on the gesshin bc you will gain a lot by purchasing from JKI. Not just the harder HT and F&F upgrades, but Jon is a great resource. you really should switch to water stones too . . . I haven't used the JKI stones but they are favorites around here.

edit: can't type
 
I'm a fan of JKI and Jon's great service. I recommend Gesshin products without reservation. But. The OP is in the UK. I don't know how much impact overseas shipping has on the cost of a knife but for our European and Aussie members, especially when considering their first (read entry level, inexpensive,) knife, they would do well to consider offerings from JNS, James, or even go off the reservation to Japanese retailers. If the Ashi product is even close to the Gesshin it is no doubt a good value.
 
If you like your gyuto why not get another takamura? They make a 120 and a 150 in both vg 10 and r2.
 
daveb said:
I'm a fan of JKI and Jon's great service. I recommend Gesshin products without reservation. But. The OP is in the UK. I don't know how much impact overseas shipping has on the cost of a knife but for our European and Aussie members, especially when considering their first (read entry level, inexpensive,) knife, they would do well to consider offerings from JNS, James, or even go off the reservation to Japanese retailers. If the Ashi product is even close to the Gesshin it is no doubt a good value.
Click to expand...

With recent crash of the euro, the fact that VAT is applied on the good and on the Shipping, and the very high shipping costs away from US - lets say that products can come to almost double compared to lets say someone taking a knife in checked luggage and moving it to Europe a year ago. Right now it is prohibitive for persons with price sensitivity. Which is sad.

Right now - old stocks in Europe or buying in Yen are better options.
 
Wow thanks for all the replies. I will look into those 2 options but I fear the import process will add a prohibitive overhead - not so much because it makes it unaffordable, but does it not bring it into a price range comparable to better knives sourced locally?

Godslayer - I do like the takamura indeed, but same as with the Tojiro I like to try a different knife each time for variety and experience.

The western handle request is more because the knife is used by more than just me, and there are some who were less convinced when testing *** handles in the shops!
 
Ashi has a english sub-website, incl. a price list... shipping to EU is ~2k Yen, so a western stainless 120 Petty from Ashi would cost ~11k Yen, which translates to 56 pounds. Dunno for sure how customs in the UK works, but here in Germany I would only have to pay VAT. So I guess a 120mm Ashi would be well inside your budget. Same goes for paying a small fee for a

http://www.ashihamono.com/en.html

Ordering is done by mail and the guy who answers their mails is a nice guy and very quick with his replies.

In terms of the difference of F&F between those and the Gesshin Ginga line. Guessing from what the JKI videos about the line, the Gesshin Ginga should have the edge in terms of FF&F. Can't say how big it is, because pretty much no one here in Germany owns a Gesshin Ginga. But I can say a thing or two about the F&F on the Ashi Hamonos...

F&F on the Wa-handled versions is quite good. I own two myself and they are pretty much on par with the F&F on my Konosuke w#2. Have seen a few more Wa-handled ones both in real life and on a german knife board and that level of F&F looks pretty consistent. Yo-ones are solid, but not on par with the quality of the finish of the Wa-version.

we had a pass around on a Yo-Gyuto on that german board.... tons of pictures: http://www.messerforum.net/showthre...F%FCnf-Blickwinkel-Ashi-Ginga-Shirogami-Gyuto
 
Thanks, I had a poke around the English site. Do I understand correctly that these are made from a single steel rather than laminated? I can't see any info on type of steel or Rockwell.

UK would receive 20% vat charge on full price inc postage, duty limit is £135 for knives.
 
parody said:
Thanks, I had a poke around the English site. Do I understand correctly that these are made from a single steel rather than laminated? I can't see any info on type of steel or Rockwell.

UK would receive 20% vat charge on full price inc postage, duty limit is £135 for knives.
Click to expand...

Yeah, those are mono-steel knives. The carbon ones made from white#2 are hardened to 60-61 HRC, the stainless ones made from some kind of Swedish Stainless and are hardened to about 58-59. They offer a hardness upgrade to 60-61 (costs ~500yen) for the stainless ones.

I own two... both are stainless Petty knives with the traditional japanese handles. One is a 150 with the hardness upgrade, the other one is a 210 without any upgrades. Very happy with them, the 210 is the knife I use the most in my home kitchen...
 
If you want great fit and finish and great edge-holding, Ryusen Blazen 105 or 135mm petty, $138 shipped at JCK

Or JCK carbonext 135mm ("semi-stainless", but very easy to care for) for $75 to your door. Hard to beat for a UK-based buyer.

When i was shopping for a petty I found that some have very small handles. Misono are good if you like a larger handle. 440 series moly is $95 in 120mm or 130mm size.
 
maiko said:
i think OP pref'd western handle. i would chose the gesshin (same maker as the ashi) ginga for the harder heat treat and purported better f&f -- and it is currently showing in stock with Jon.

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/gesshin-ginga-120mm-stainless-petty.html

separately, i would urge you to re-consider the sharp-maker as your primary sharpening tool. love it for my utility folders, but i'm able do put a much better edge on my kitchen knives using whetstones. ymmv.
Click to expand...

Why would you buy a product at a higher price under a different label? I find it hard to believe that Ashi would sell lower quality products and then somehow adjust the whole way they manufacture their knives for such a small vendor. It would be different if it was a high volume order for a large chain. Caveat Emptor.
 
Thanks guys. I'm defo now interested I importing, opens up my choice dramatically. Getting recommendations simplifies that else I'd be lost in that choice.

There is a serious lack of suppliers in the UK (I'm half thinking about putting that right...)

I'm having a browse around the jki site now.

Regarding sharpening, I have been thinking about getting a stone to finish off after the sharp maker. Any thoughts on grade, and which ones can handle the R2 blade of the takamura (without wanting to turn this into a sharpening thread)...
 
Also... I had in my head that a mono steel of 61 hardness would be somewhat fragile? Hence why the lamination is done?
 
CaremeFraiche said:
Why would you buy a product at a higher price under a different label? I find it hard to believe that Ashi would sell lower quality products and then somehow adjust the whole way they manufacture their knives for such a small vendor. It would be different if it was a high volume order for a large chain. Caveat Emptor.
Click to expand...

CaremeFraiche said:
I have a 6" Wusthof Ikon Chef's knife and parer with the blackwood handle and they are great knives, ....
Click to expand...

Read more. Type less.
 
CaremeFraiche said:
Why would you buy a product at a higher price under a different label? I find it hard to believe that Ashi would sell lower quality products and then somehow adjust the whole way they manufacture their knives for such a small vendor. It would be different if it was a high volume order for a large chain. Caveat Emptor.
Click to expand...

"... such a small vendor ...". Small relative to what? So you are implying that JKI is somehow lying? Or what is your point exactly? I think you are on pretty thin ice...
 
panda said:
he's saying gesshin line is overpriced. value is up to the buyer so whatever.
Click to expand...

As far as I can see, he is implying considerably more than that... But perhaps it is best to let it go
 
CaremeFraiche said:
Why would i be on thin ice?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure this is really worth it, but anyway. You seem to be implying that JKI's claim that they have a tighter QC, and that they ask the producer to go at higher hardness, is BS. That, I think, is thin ice, unless you can somehow substantiate why that is false...
 
Yep. The "previous lifetime" being the operative part of the sentence. You too have the opportunity to learn something. Or you could sit proudly with your Wustie telling everyone else how stupid they are.
 
Dear sir, I would expect more from a moderator. I feel like you are engaging in a personal attack on my preferences in an effort to slight me for stating my opinion. I have every right to express my opinion in a respectful way regarding a subject. Is this a forum or not?
 
Guys you are derailing the topic... While it is great to support the approved vendors, it doesn't make sense for the OP to buy from jki. If he was from the US or maybe even Canada I would fully agree that ordering from Jon is the best choice, esp in regards to the Western handled Ginga knives. The service that he provides is worth the increase in costs. But the OP is from the UK and with the shipping costs from the US to Europe and how import taxes work in the Eu, the price difference between buying from him and Ashi directly is huge and most likely would raise the costs beyond his budget.

And about that increased hardness: if I remember correctly Jon said somewhere that the standard hardness is perfectly fine in his opinion, he went for the higher hardness on the gesshin because that was his main customer market wants... Which is the US market.... And if one really wants it, Ashi offers it for a very moderate price increase.

So what really sets the two lines apart are the higher amount of time spend on the fit and finish and getting a second QC step... But that doesn't mean that the f&f and QC is poor... If it where I would guess that Jon wouldn't cooperate with them... And most of the f&f difference between the yo gesshin Ginga and the yo Ashi Ginga can be solved with some sandpaper... Easing the spine of a knife isn't rocket science...
 
I think a healthy degree of skepticism is always needed. I also believe there should be some degree of impartiality regarding advice being given.
 
About the prices: according to the jki page the cheapest shipping option to the UK costs about 50 bucks... A 120 Petty costs 135, that's 185$ before he has to pay 20%vat. No way that fits his budget...

Edit : ran the math... Ashi ginga120 with hardness upgrade is less than 75 pounds... And while the gesshin comes with a Saya, it ends up being close to 150 pounds... 50% above his budget...
 
Karnstein said:
Guys you are derailing the topic... While it is great to support the approved vendors, it doesn't make sense for the OP to buy from jki
Click to expand...

You're right, sorry. I just got pissed... Of corse there is nothing wrong with buying directly from Ashi...
 
CaremeFraiche said:
I think a healthy degree of skepticism is always needed. I also believe there should be some degree of impartiality regarding advice being given.
Click to expand...

And we are all very thankful for some skepticism.

We do not get paid to be mods. DaveB was simply stating how he feels due to his past experiences with JKI. We are not shilling for the vendors here. Most of the more active and "older" members have had positive experiences and are only partial because of it.

Why would you buy a product at a higher price under a different label? I find it hard to believe that Ashi would sell lower quality products and then somehow adjust the whole way they manufacture their knives for such a small vendor. It would be different if it was a high volume order for a large chain.
Click to expand...
-This simply is not true. Sorry that people took offense. Stick around a little bit longer and learn some........................
.......if you can handle being disappointed by the behavior of us mods.
 
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