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Steve90

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Hi all! Thought I'd start a thread to ask some questions I have about knives and knife sharpening as it's all a wee bit confusing to a beginner. Well basically I'm new to the chef'ing world! Haven't been doing it long but I love it. And that's what brought me here, I think to be a better chef you need to learn every aspect not just the food and I believe that in cooking the saying 'a bad workman blames his tools' does not apply you just have to have the correct equipment, and a good sharp knife is essential! When started I got myself a 10" rosewood Victorinox and and diamond steel but now it has lost its edge and is a nightmare to work with. I was be very grateful if any of you lot had some sound advice for a novice! What are your thoughts on Victorinox? How should I go about sharpening and maintening my knifes edge? And how to do lot store your knives?
 
Welcome!

I'd suggest starting to learn about sharpening, since you already have a serviceable knife you know and use. The Victorinox is quite good for the price. If you hang out here you'll probably spend way more than that eventually :)

Sharpening & honing
Here's what's probably the best resource on sharpening in English on the subject:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEBF55079F53216AB
The first 9 videos cover everything you need to know to sharpen your current knife. The other ones won't be as useful right away.

Here's another good playlist, that's not as well organized by difficulty level as the above one:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsSxXLQSZIe__A5THcrFGto9_PSkXWiN6

For that you'll need to get a stone or two (no more to start!). Turns out someone was just recommending an excellent medium+fine grit combo stone for beginners, for just $36:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...t-people-addicted-new-cerex-1k-3k-combo-stone
Since it's so cheap, I'd say go ahead and get that. You'll learn what you like and dislike, and you can add more stones later if you want.

Since you mention you have a steel, here's a a video on proper steel use:
[video=youtube;jAWcQOc93ec]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAWcQOc93ec[/video]

Storage
At home, most people here probably use wooden magnetic bars. They can hold many large knives without scratching them (a problem with metal magnetic bars). Example: http://benchcrafted.com/Magblok.html

Some people also use wooden blocks, but since we all tend to have so many large knives, it gets hard to find unless custom-made. Of course, if you have a lot of self-control or don't hang out on this forum too much, it gets easier :)
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/6605-Custom-Knife-Blocks

There are also wooden drawer organizers such as this:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0009MG0JE/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Finally, you can always get sayas (Japanese-style wooden blade covers) for each of your knives and just keep them in a regular drawer. That's not ideal for non-stainless knives, but you don't have that concern yet.

I don't think many pros leave their knives at work, too easy to get stolen... Instead they get excited about various knife bags, cases and rolls. Here's a recent thread:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/21759-What-Bag-Roll-do-you-use

Knife shopping advice
Just in case you were looking for an excuse to upgrade from the Victorinox, there's a standard questionnaire you can fill out so we can give you tailored advice:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...hich-Knife-Should-I-Buy-quot-Questionnaire-v2
Just paste your answers as a new message in this thread, if you're interested.

FYI, it will only make sense to upgrade if you have at least $75 to spend on a new chef's knife, I think. I would focus on getting your existing knife sharp first.
 
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perneto said:
For that you'll need to get a stone or two (no more to start!). Turns out someone was just recommending an excellent medium+fine grit combo stone for beginners, for just $36:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...t-people-addicted-new-cerex-1k-3k-combo-stone
Since it's so cheap, I'd say go ahead and get that. You'll learn what you like and dislike, and you can add more stones later if you want.
Click to expand...

And here's the link:
http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store...oduct_info&cPath=335_404_573&products_id=1956
 
Diamond rods are pretty fine, so I think you have just been polishing the current edge (and if you use too much pressure rolling over the edge..). At some point, this is not enough, and you need to go down to coarser whetstones and do legit sharpening. Raise a burr, remove the burr, create a clean crisp bevel and all that. If you have been sharpening, but not thinning, then that needs to be addressed as well.
 
Steve90 said:
Hi all! Thought I'd start a thread to ask some questions I have about knives and knife sharpening as it's all a wee bit confusing to a beginner. Well basically I'm new to the chef'ing world! Haven't been doing it long but I love it. And that's what brought me here, I think to be a better chef you need to learn every aspect not just the food and I believe that in cooking the saying 'a bad workman blames his tools' does not apply you just have to have the correct equipment, and a good sharp knife is essential! When started I got myself a 10" rosewood Victorinox and and diamond steel but now it has lost its edge and is a nightmare to work with. I was be very grateful if any of you lot had some sound advice for a novice! What are your thoughts on Victorinox? How should I go about sharpening and maintening my knifes edge? And how to do lot store your knives?
Click to expand...

Hello and welcome Steve90

Your Victorinox has probably served you well and been sharpened with the diamond steel many times and may be deformed along the edge also? it's also a bit to thick behind the edge to become a good cutting tool for you and in need of thinning. yes?
You need to get a coarse and medium stone to thin your blade or turn it in to someone that can do the thinning for ya.

Learn some basic skills with knives and wet stones, then do some practice and you will never have any problem again with knives being a poor cutter

I'm sure someone can provide u with a ton of clips how to sharpen and maintain your knives:thumbsup:
 
That video was pretty good. Only diff. I put knife on underside of steel for other side still sweeping out. That way no chance of hitting the guard. Like he said only a couple light strokes is all you need to straight the edge.

I do not care for diamond steels. The diamonds do some cutting of the steel as opposed to a totally smooth polishing rod that works well on Victorinox knives. The diamond steels are sold at the supply stores here cooks who use them eventually bugger up their edges, knives do not cut well at all. Bottom line is no substitute for freehand skills.

Welcome to the Forum, plenty info. here to get your knife sharp.:)
 
Cheers for the advise lads! Looks like I'll need to get myself a stone! I forgot to mention I'm from England so I hope these websites ship that far lol. I've been having a read around different sharpening topics and I've read I need to get a stone flattened? And also that I shouldn't be using a diamond steel as they are too abrasive. What kind of honing rod do you recommend? Thanks again and sorry for all these questions just I work an absolute shitload and trying to find all this information from articles takes up time I don't have haha!
 
No problem shipping to the UK. The one I linked to actually ships from Japan, so UK or US doesn't make much of a difference:
http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store...oduct_info&cPath=335_404_573&products_id=1956

Flattening will indeed become necessary at some point. There it probably makes sense to spend a bit more and get a diamond plate right away.
The cheaper kind of stone flattener (e.g. http://www.knivesandtools.co.uk/en/pt/-naniwa-flattening-stone-grain-220-a102.htm) tends to wear unevenly over time and require flattening just like waterstones.

The i-Wood 150 or 300 grit diamond plate here seems like a very affordable option: http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store...roduct_info&cPath=335_462_463&products_id=852
I haven't tried it myself, perhaps others can comment on it.
Here's some praise for the iWood plates: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/5544-DMT-vs-Atoma-vs-other

If you're short on cash, you can use drywall screen instead. I haven't tried that myself.

For honing rods, you can probably stick with what you have right now and just make sure to use a very light touch.

If you upgrade your knife later, you might stop using honing rods altogether.
 
a flattener that needs flattened, well that seems a wee bit pointless haha! ill do a bit more reading about this forum then get myself a stone, a flattener and a new honing rod as mines gone missing (as things seem to do in busy professional kitchens!) i also need a few new task specific knives such as carving knife, flexible filleting knife some others, do you reccomd sticking with vicroinox for time being while im a knife novice? i dont earn that much at the minute is why im asking
 
Keeping your knives thin behind the edge makes sharpening so much easier and faster, i often use a "Taidea 5000grit" under the water tap, a couple of strokes and deburr on balsa strop creates a razor edge in seconds. i dont use honing rod anymore:)
 
Steve90 said:
a flattener that needs flattened, well that seems a wee bit pointless haha!
Click to expand...

Well, you use them much less often than sharpening stones, so they stay serviceably flat for a while, but diamond plates are definitely more convenient and will last forever (as long as they're used to flatten stones only).

Steve90 said:
ill do a bit more reading about this forum then get myself a stone, a flattener and a new honing rod as mines gone missing (as things seem to do in busy professional kitchens!)
Click to expand...

Sounds good. Maybe others can advise about the rod. The MAC black ceramic rod seem popular.

Steve90 said:
i also need a few new task specific knives such as carving knife, flexible filleting knife some others, do you reccomd sticking with vicroinox for time being while im a knife novice? i dont earn that much at the minute is why im asking
Click to expand...

Would you care to try carbon (non-stainless) steel? That could be a good option for your slicer/carving knife.
 
Sabaki said:
Keeping your knives thin behind the edge makes sharpening so much easier and faster, i often use a "Taidea 5000grit" under the water tap, a couple of strokes and deburr on balsa strop creates a razor edge in seconds. i dont use honing rod anymore:)
Click to expand...

I'm such a novice I don't even know what half that means haha
 
perneto said:
Well, you use them much less often than sharpening stones, so they stay serviceably flat for a while, but diamond plates are definitely more convenient and will last forever (as long as they're used to flatten stones only).



Sounds good. Maybe others can advise about the rod. The MAC black ceramic rod seem popular.



Would you care to try carbon (non-stainless) steel? That could be a good option for your slicer/carving knife.
Click to expand...

I'd try anything that sharp, not too costly,costly and not too hard to maintain buddy
 
Steve90 said:
I'm such a novice I don't even know what half that means haha
Click to expand...

Taidea #5000 is a cheap flat ceramic waterstone from China found at Ebay, after sharpening with the stone u want to remove any burr the stone creates and this is easy done stropping the knife on: balsa leather or newspaper. It gives the edge that extra touch of sharpness and makes it last longer also
 
Sabaki said:
Taidea #5000 is a cheap flat ceramic waterstone from China found at Ebay, after sharpening with the stone u want to remove any burr the stone creates and this is easy done stropping the knife on: balsa leather or newspaper. It gives the edge that extra touch of sharpness and makes it last longer also
Click to expand...

id rather invest a little bit extra and get myself a better quality stone (or stones) that will last me years, is theyre any others you reccomend? i just watched a video on burr removal and now i get what you mean! thanks!
 
AllanP said:
You are pretty set with those three stones imo , from what I read a lot of people eventually end up on the Chosera/Naniwa pro as their go to sets.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply, think I'll get myself these come payday
 
Marcelo Amaral said:
Another option would be getting the JNS Matukusuyama 300, 1k and 6k. I don't own the 6k, but the 300 and 1k are awesome.
Click to expand...

I'm just a wee bit dubious about ordering from Japan as the import costs might make it costly, did yours cost much more?
 
JNS is located and ships from Denmark. Great service. JNS 300 might be the last coarse stone you ever need.
 
daveb said:
JNS is located and ships from Denmark. Great service. JNS 300 might be the last coarse stone you ever need.
Click to expand...
sweet! even better then
Marcelo Amaral said:
The 300 is not available right now, but i imagine it won't take too long to be in stock again http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/synthetic-stones/?sort=newest
Click to expand...

im thinking about getting the JNS 300, 1000 and 6000 Matukusuyama, and the 140 diamond plate to flatten these. does that sound like a good idea?
 
Thanks lads! Appreciate the help! Roll on payday then, why do I get the feeling this is going to turn into an expensive hobby..
 
Look on the bright side: you're already getting some of the best stones, so you'll only be spending on knives from now on :)
 
A steel that does not cost much but works is the Victorinox Combo cut. It is half fine & half smooth polish 12" rod around 30.00. I used one at work many years. After trail & error got away from groved steels even for my Forschners. With my Japanese carbons would use just the polish side of the steel. Say dicing a couple cases of tomato's for Lomi Salmon would do a couple measured lite strokes on smooth steel & edge is reset. Over steeling of any kind will fatige the edge.

Another option are Splash & Go stones for light touchups.
 
perneto said:
Look on the bright side: you're already getting some of the best stones, so you'll only be spending on knives from now on :)
Click to expand...
you have a good point there bud!
keithsaltydog said:
A steel that does not cost much but works is the Victorinox Combo cut. It is half fine & half smooth polish 12" rod around 30.00. I used one at work many years. After trail & error got away from groved steels even for my Forschners. With my Japanese carbons would use just the polish side of the steel. Say dicing a couple cases of tomato's for Lomi Salmon would do a couple measured lite strokes on smooth steel & edge is reset. Over steeling of any kind will fatige the edge.

Another option are Splash & Go stones for light touchups.
Click to expand...
the stones i have mentioned previously are splash and go so i think id just take them to work and when needs be give the edge a quick touch up, when i learn how to correctly sharpen that is.
 
Like everybody is saying it is best to start with the good stuff. I did not do that, and started first with some sharpening jigs (Gatco, then EdgePro) and finally end buying chosera professional stones. At that time I also bought Naniwa flattening stone that is not so good (like mentioned it is dishing). Just yesterday I bought Atoma 140. So I end up paying much much more than if I would buy proper stone immediately.

BTW you have a sale on Atoma 140 on:
http://www.japan-tool.com/zc/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=43_63_65

I end up paying 52 EUR for Atoma and around 10 for shipping. There will still be around 20 eur of duty when it arrives in Belgium.

I do not have experience with JNS stones, everybody is talking great things about them.
I just bought Chosera package deal you were referencing previously. They are great stones! I just added another finer stone, Naniwa snow white 8000:
http://www.amazon.de/dp/B00JOECNZI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


And the same thing goes for the knives. Once you will try Japanese knives you will forget your Victorinox. Most likely you do not need to buy all the knives at once. Start with one and buy a good one ;)
 
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