Looking for a good Gyuko and Petty but need help!

Hello everyone,

I am looking for some knives and finally am in a place where I can afford them. I am looking for a good Gyuko, Petty, and Bread Knife. My preference is probably to buy used as my experience is that I can get much more bang for the buck and if people take care of a knife, it should last a VERY long time. The issue is that there is so much to see and I don't really know where to start. (materials, etc.) I have one knife with a D shaped handle and much prefer it to the western style handles. I am open to trying new style handles.

LOCATION
What country are you in? USA



KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?

Chef's knife, paring knife, bread knife

Are you right or left handed?

Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?

Japanese

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?

240? 150? haven't got a clue for bread knife. I need to try more.

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)

I would prefer it not to rust but I will care for it as if it were my child so that probably is not the most important part.

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?

I would like to spend less than 600 for the three knives together. Maybe I can get used knives form someone?



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?

Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)

Slicing/mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, filleting fish, trimming meats, cutting crusty bread, slicing fruits

What knife, if any, are you replacing? None

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)

Pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)


Slice, Rock

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

I want knives sharp enough for me to maintain proper technique and will last me a lifetime. I am going to practice sharpening my other knives before I sharpen the knives I would buy here. Having them ready to upon arrival would be ideal. I would like the knives to be damascus based on aesthetics but it is not a must. A nice handle is important to me but I have yet to use a true Japanese knife with a wood or bone handle. I don't think I have one to try around where I live. (Atlanta, GA area) If they are pretty that is a huge plus that my wife will appreciate.

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)

I believe I will be going for a maple cutting board, currently I have a crappy mysterious wood one.

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)

Not yet, this will change and I am very excited to practice on my not future knives. Kind of terrified about ruining them.

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

Absolutely!

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)

Yes

For a good bread knife, get a Mac either the 8 3/4 in (~$63) or the 10.5 in (~$90) and you'll be set. That leaves over $500 remaining for a gyuto and a petty, which is quite a lot, so you might want to help us further narrow that down for you.

That is great you are interested in learning how to sharpen your knives, but yes it may not be the best situation to buy a $300 gyuto and practice sharpening on it...especially if you want it to stay pretty. But what are your existing knives that you plan to practice sharpening on? IMHO this is the important question we need to know before recommending a knife for you, because you will need something suitable to practice on. I.e. even if you have good whetstones, you can't learn sharpening using cheap knives as it won't really give you good feedback if you're doing well.

If your existing knives are decent ones, then I'd say go ahead and get a higher-end knife with your current budget. But if they are not, my recommendation is to get something more mid-range (e.g. $100-200 for a gyuto)...or alternatively if in your budget you can allocate $50 for a Tojiro DP 210 mm gyuto, that would be a great beater/sharpening practice knife.

Anyway if you're in the Atlanta area, one high-end knife you can go try out is the Zwilling Kramer Meiji at your local Sur la Table. You can also see our thread discussion on those knives here.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/23859-ZK-Meiji

Japanese Knife Imports has the Gesshin Gonbei Hammer Damascus 240mm. It is Sweetish Stainless Steel. 160.00. For a home knife for you and your wife it is a nice looking blade that cuts well. Quality stainless or at least stainless clad is better for the wife. Carbon takes extra care in a home situation.

A sharp Gyuto will cut most breads fine. Use gyuto for cutting French loafs in half for fresh garlic bread, stacked sandwich etc. Hard crust bread may need a bread knife. If you do want one, the Mac, Victorinox 10.25 wavy edge, & Tojiro are all good blades.

Right now I have knives from the Henckels Mikado International series. I was actually giving serious thought into getting some Tojiro knives because they are very inexpensive and I have heard good things. I realized a typo in my previous post. I have used a D handle knife, I do not own one.

I am also looking or a good guide on everything I need for sharpening. I am looking at the Bester 1200 Grit Stone, but feel I should probably get a sharpening table, maybe the "Tojiro-Pro" Sharpening Table? All help appreciated!

Stephen_Volker said:

Right now I have knives from the Henckels Mikado International series. I was actually giving serious thought into getting some Tojiro knives because they are very inexpensive and I have heard good things. I realized a typo in my previous post. I have used a D handle knife, I do not own one.

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In your case, I would suggest getting one Tojiro DP knife for practicing sharpening and to have as an extra (for guests to use, etc.). The Henckels Mikado is decent enough for learning some basic sharpening fundamentals (e.g. it's not a cheapo $10 Walmart knife), but you won't get an understanding of what truly sharp is from it (e.g. you would typically go 20 degree each side, and the steel isn't well matched to benefit from polishing on finer whetstones to refine the edge).

As for your nicer knife, do you have additional input to help us further narrow down the suggestions? E.g. do you have a preference what kind of steel (or steels) you would like the knife to be made from? Or examples of higher-end knives that you have been looking at and are curious about?

I have been looking at several types of steel. One knife I have been eyeing is made from W2 steel. I do not know how to work with a patina but I always wash my blades right after use and dry them. The knife I have been eyeing is the Masakage Shimo 240mm. For the petty I will probably want a stainless or stainless clad so that they are less reactive. I have also looked at the Masakage Koishi knives which are Aogami Super Steel that has been hardened to 63:65 Rockwell. Unfortunately my ignorance at this point is pretty embarrassing.

I wouldn't buy a Masakage Shimo at this point as it seems very reactive. See http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/24170-Is-this-a-brown-patina-or-rust . If you decide to go with Masakage, the Hikari, Kiri, Kumo, Yuki and Koishi lines are either stainless or stainless clad knives, much easier to deal with. I never used the Shimo line, so my suggestion is only based on what i've read, but i have a Yuki honesuki (stainless clad) that i have used several times without any worries. Good luck!

I have looked into the masakage koishi gyuto 240 mm. I don't see any for sale at the moment but wonder if I should start with a cheaper knife. I do not want to be a disgrace to the knife. At the same time, I want a knife I will be happy with for pretty much ever.

Stephen_Volker said:

I have looked into the masakage koishi gyuto 240 mm. I don't see any for sale at the moment but wonder if I should start with a cheaper knife. I do not want to be a disgrace to the knife. At the same time, I want a knife I will be happy with for pretty much ever.

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The Koishi is a nice knife. It's quite thin behind the edge, and its performance should impress you. Maybe not the best for a starter, but if you're careful about how you use it, you could be okay. I think the biggest issue for those new to Japanese knives is that one can't twist or pry with the blade. Blades are very strong along the spine to edge axis, but those lateral forces can be rough on hard and thin blades. Keep your current knife, or buy a cheaper one that you can use for any questionable cuts, particularly while you are getting used to your new blades.

I don't think it's a knife you'd outgrow for quite a while. Beyond cutting performance, it should have excellent edge retention as well.

I think the sharpening table is overkill for a starter. I started with the $6 DMT non-skid mat. Later I bought diamond stones from Jon from Japanese Knife Imports, which came with the following stone holder, which serves my needs just fine: http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/sharpening-supplies/sharpening-accessories/stone-holder.html Yeah, I have to wipe the counter afterwards, but it's not that big a deal.

I think most people would recommend a medium/fine combo stone if you're only going to get one stone. Or you could add something in the 4-6K range if you're willing to get a second stone. Get a 20x or 30x magnifier as well. Maybe down the road you might want a strop. And a few more knives, of course!

For a 240 I'd try a konosuke Fujiyama series. Huge bang for the buck! 150 petty I've tried a few and currently use a TF 150 petty true work horse! I wouldn't spend much on a bread knife most any will do. Take the extra money and grab a shapton pro or glass sharpening stone set with a 500, 1000 and 5000 grit value and you should have yourself a nice little set.

The Fujiyama look outstanding but I am looking for something that is not reactive. This is the main reason I am looking at the Masakage Koishi.

Stephen_Volker said:

The Fujiyama look outstanding but I am looking for something that is not reactive. This is the main reason I am looking at the Masakage Koishi.

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The Koishi is reactive as well, it's just glad so not the whole blade is.

I wouldn't recommend the Koishi for someone just getting into J-Knives. In my experience something like the Yuki (if you want to stick with Masakage) is much more forgiving.

Or go with a nice SLD/SKD or other semi-stainless steels that are (somewhat) easy to sharpen.

The koishi is a very good knive as well. Can't go wrong with that choice at all. Being thin at the edge it be susceptible to chipping, be mindful of your cutting mechanics and you will be ok. Just watch your side to side movements when going through denser product.

For something like the Fujiyama would adding a patina help to protect it from rust? If so, how do I do it? =P

A patina will form, wipe it down after use and you'll be good. I never force a patina, it will happen over time.

Stephen_Volker said:

For something like the Fujiyama would adding a patina help to protect it from rust? If so, how do I do it? =P

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A patina, forced or natural, provides minimal protection from rust. You must still be vigilant in not leaving the knife wet for any length of time and you must scrupulously dry it before putting it away. What a patina will do is minimize reactivity in many, but not all carbon knives.

Fujiyama would likely not be the best choice for someone new to carbon as they are known for being highly reactive...if you'd like to start with carbon perhaps a monosteel knife may be a better choice?

Tosho have some of the KU Konosuke Fujiyama gyutos available still, I think, so that would be less of a concern with respect to reactivity. But I guess I wouldn't class that a 'beginner's knife' ! [emoji6]

The Fujiwara Nashiji seems like it would be pretty darn exciting and not as reactive. It is also seems to be at a pretty recent price point right now due to closeout.

Taking into account you are based in the US, i would choose a Gesshin Ginga/Kagero, if you prefer a thinner knife, or a Gesshin Uraku, for more of a workhorse. That should leave you some money for the stones. Regarding the size, i would get a 210mm for starters. Another option would be the Tesshu in VG10 http://yhst-27988581933240.stores.yahoo.net/tesshu-wa-gyuto-210mm-vg10-steel-blade-chef-21010.html .Mine in white steel is a great cutter. God luck in your quest!

240 MM Yokishane SKD Gyuto ordered. I got too good of a deal to pass. What are your opinions of magnetic strips for storage?

they'll scratch up your knives unless there's a surface between the magnetic strip and the knife. So if that storage method makes sense for your workspace (as it does for mine) then pay a little extra for the magnetic strips mounted behind a piece of wood (looks better too).

I was fully intending on one with the wood. Do you have any recommendations? My fear is the idea of a cat bumping the knife and it falling.

I currently use just the metal magnetic strips because I'v yet to upgrade my knives to the point where I would worry about them getting scratched up (all in due time). I know that Jon at JKI has a large selection that are quite nice (and priced for it), but they're all out of stock at the moment. I've only heard good things about these: http://shop.ruhlman.com/products/knife-grabber but I don't have personal experience with them, though I can vouch for the quality of their other offerings. I have two cats right now and I've never had them knock a knife off of the strips I've got up. Even if they did brush against them, I don't think they'd come loose, honestly.

These work quite well and are reasonably priced.

http://www.benchcrafted.com/Magblok.html