If you could have just one knife (sort of)---chinese cleaver--want recommendation

I was raised in a Chinese household where everything is done with a cleaver and a paring knife.

For the past 2 years, I've been trying to use a number of gyutos/chef knives over the past year, but I could never quite get used to it. I started with a Lee Valley peasant chef knife for a year (great knife, sharp, small). I bought a 255 mm Heiji SS Gyuto (very sharp, pleasure to sharpen, great knife).

I keep finding myself going back to my crudely made, soft-metal Chinese cleaver.

If you could have just one knife--a chinese cleaver--which one would it be?
I've pmed schanop--who recommended a Sugimoto OMS 6 and a Heiji with slab handles.
Andy likes his Tadatsuna #6 (with custom handle) or Suen VG-10.

grip: two finger traditional pinch (not sure how to describe it, look at Martin Yan)




LOCATION
[*]What country are you in? USA

KNIFE TYPE
[*]What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)? Chinese chef knife/cleaver/chukabocho
[*]Are you right or left handed? mainly right
[*]Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?--chinese handle.
[*]What length of knife (blade) are you interested? 210-225 mm
[*]Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)--Semi stainless preferred. Non reactive carbon okay.
[*]What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? $1000

KNIFE USE
[*]Home use
[*]What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for ( slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, ---everything except for chopping bones.)--mostly, I cook vegetables and sea food.
[*]What knife, if any, are you replacing? Thin HK vegetable cleaver
[*]Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
[*]
[*]What cutting motions do you primarily use? more used--push cut, chop, chop, walk, draw slice, rock --less used
[*]What improvements do you want from your current knife? Better edge retention (current blade goes dull after about 10-20 minutes of good use, fit and finish (mine is pretty ugly)
[*]
[*] aesthetics (No damascus please! I just don't want knife to discolor the food that I'm cutting. I had a sabatier turn my onions black)
[*]Comfort (lighter knife; don't care about handle--will likely rehandle the knife; rounded spine/choil of the knife--don't care, I can do that myself; improved balance--I will tweak the balance myself)?
[*]
[*]Ease of Use (I'd like it to cut at least as well as my Heiji SS Gyuto; Good food release is great, but this is a cleaver--not expecting much; less reactivity with food--a must; easier to sharpen is a plus)?
[*]Edge Retention (1 week to month as a home cook)

[*]KNIFE MAINTENANCE
[*]Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes.)--end grain maple, end grain chinese ironwood
[*][*]Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes) Ceramic and natural water stones
[*][*]If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes) Always would like to improve
[*][*]Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes) Mainly for my chisels and planes. I build guitars for fun, and can appreciate a great edge.
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SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS: To my fellow cleaver-nuts, can you give me input on the perfect cleaver handle shape? I've heard a lot about Fish/Andy handles, but never used one.

I ordered a Sugimoto no 30 for my sister, so will have a sample of famous Sugimoto handle.

fwiw, I'm thinking of commissioning a chuka from Heiji (thinner/slicer type, rat tang--annealed tip, SS) and making my own handle (Old growth brazilian rosewood (which I have in the garage) or zitan (if I can get it).

Well I love my sugimoto #6. I do not have the oms version but it looks great. I would google andy777 cleaver. You will get a ton of great information from looking him up.

I've been googling everything Andy888 and cleaver.

Fwiw, I love his posts.

Anybody know about Watanabe's cleaver?

http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/pro/cleaver.htm

All I found on it was a post from years ago on KF that he would never make one again...

Gesshin ginga cleaver sure looks nice, but it's OOS. Personally, I'd hit up Heiji and see if he'll make one for you.

OOS?

No help here other than to suggest that the barrel handles seem to feel the most natural.

OOS= out of stock...there is currently one on b/s/t.

James said:

Gesshin ginga cleaver sure looks nice, but it's OOS. Personally, I'd hit up Heiji and see if he'll make one for you.

Click to expand...

Yeah the one in BST looks like a good deal to me. I used to own one of those and theyre very nice for the price. I sold mine because it was just a little too heavy for my tastes. JKI has a ginga wa handle cleaver in stock thats a little lighter.

Just like you I grew up using cleavers, and have owned a few in my life. Below is what my thoughts are:

The barrel (CCK) - very comfortable and natural
Sugimoto (mines a #7) - my fav handle type, it just works
Rounded rectangle (Tojiro pro F631) - pretty comfortable and controllable for a stainless handle
Oversize octagonal (moritaka) - not a fan, handle was too long for a cleaver, as well the octagonal handle had to many sharp points where the handle joins with the blade. The blade is a beast though.
Slabs (Ashi #6) - not a fan, found the slabs made the handle too large. Might be better with a western grip but not a cleaver grip.

May I ask if you looking for a thin slicing cleaver (#6) or a med chopper/general purpose cleaver (#7)?

MikeHL,

Thanks for your input!
I especially appreciate it, as I've been looking at the Tojiro pro and the slab style handles.
I'll probably have to wait until the Sugimoto cleaver comes in.
I currently have a decent (if soft) barrel handle HK cleaver.

I'm probably looking for a thin slicing cleaver (#6) for now (and maybe a medium chopper (#7) later_.
Most of my cooking involves vegetable matter: herbs, leafy vegetables, and mushrooms.
I rarely chop root vegetables (potatoes, radishes, carrots). I rarely cook meat or cut meat.
If I need to bread down a fish or chicken, I separate the joint prior to severing connective tendons.

Frankly, I'll probably get used to either weight of cleaver--but I suspect that I'll gravitate towards the lighter weight ones for most every day use like Andy888.

Believe Sugimoto 6 is in stock at Korin.

I've just sent Heiji an email regarding my request.

I'll be requesting:
1. Semistainless
2. Thinner grind like a sugimoto 6
3. Bigger handle like a sugimoto, or no handle with an annealed rat tang (so that I can make one)
4. Saya--I could make one, but have no time.

Please keep us updated on your (intended) purchase - I would be interested in how you go through the whole process.

The Sugimoto is noticeably thicker at the heel, and thin at the tip, which makes it a versitile knife. The tip can easily slice up onions, while the heel can go through garlic cloves. It is not slicer in the sense of a Tadatsuna, which is thin the entire length of the blade.

Sugimoto probably comes to the closest to making the ideal cleaver. The size and weight make for a cleaver that is nimble. The handle is comfortable. The choil is rounded on the right side and the top half of the spine is rounded.

Sugimoto suffers from the problem of most cleaver which is rough fit and finish. Still they are better then most.

If you want more of a classic slicer, then a Tadatsuna in white steel or inox. It might be easier to get a Mizuno in a stainless. The Mizuno carbon is a longer slicing cleaver with very good edge retention.

Good luck in your choice,

Jay

I am not cleaver expert and I have not used as many as some people here, but I really like this one I got from Will.



I gave him the dimensions I wanted and he nailed it. Hollow ground like his nakiris (or Takeda). Stainless. Just put a burnt chestnut handle on it myself as those are the ones I prefer these days. Nice and thin too.

Prefer Chinese style barrel handles, that's what I used over the years. For Stainless like the Japanese cleavers. Tojiro's and Sugimoto. Very thin vegetable cleavers you must treat just like a thin gyuto.

JohnnyChance said:

I am not cleaver expert and I have not used as many as some people here, but I really like this one I got from Will.

I gave him the dimensions I wanted and he nailed it. Hollow ground like his nakiris (or Takeda). Stainless. Just put a burnt chestnut handle on it myself as those are the ones I prefer these days. Nice and thin too.

Click to expand...

Nice looking cleaver.

Jay

I've emailed Heiji, and he proposed a cleaver with slab ebony handles, just like the ones from Japan-tool.
I'm not sure if it's because the exchange rate, but it's a bit less than I expected to pay.

Anyways, I'm waiting to hear back from him regarding payment disbursement and whether I can send him some Brazilian rosewood for the handle.

-Matt

Sounds like an excellent option, Matt. Exchange rate is in your favour, of course. His direct price should also be a touch lower than from Japan-tool, just that you have to wait for the queue.

Good luck.

mlau said:

I've emailed Heiji, and he proposed a cleaver with slab ebony handles, just like the ones from Japan-tool.
I'm not sure if it's because the exchange rate, but it's a bit less than I expected to pay.

Anyways, I'm waiting to hear back from him regarding payment disbursement and whether I can send him some Brazilian rosewood for the handle.

-Matt

Click to expand...

I got an email from Heiji yesterday.

His terms are: ebony handles, or he'll leave things slabless for me to add my own handles.
Payment upfront. 4 month wait.

Love me some Brazilian Rosewood! Careful on sending that anywhere! My Brazilian rosewood guitars never leave the house anymore.

Funny that you mention that. I have some old stock that I bought at Woodcraft San Carlos.
The big seller of Brazilian rosewood had some overstock that was too squirrelly for most builders, or too small for back and side sets.
I bought a few rift and quartersawn blanks for bridges.

While I only had a very limited time to study under Randy Angella, he gave me a very thorough understanding about the properties of the instrument.
Braz RW makes the biggest difference in the bridge. But premium old growth East Indian Rosewood is severely underrated, and sounds almost as nice.
Cocobolo, snakewood, ebony, etc a noticeably "deader"--especially on a classical guitar. On steel strings, you can get away with much more.

For backs, there's a slight difference, but it's more the builder.
For sides, there's no difference. You may as well use another wood, and overlay a ply of brazilian veneer (a la Ramirez or Somogyi). Angella insists on solid sides, as it's a point of pride that his stuff was air drying since 1970.
For fretboards, there's an insignificant difference. You can use any other rosewood. You'll have a bigger effect with fiberglass/carbon fiber neck reinforcements.
Bridge--BIG difference.
Everything else, is just marketting.

In my ears, Osage orange, Amazon Rosewood (dalbergia, not the other species that is sometimes called Hormigo), Peruvian Rosewood, and madagascar rosewood are pretty good replacements for Brazilian from a tonal standpoint.
They have a really high acoustic transference, and help maintain the high frequency response.

Anyways, more than you wanted to know.

What a great thread. As a westerner with very little understanding of Cleaver use other than for splitting a hog I really enjoy the insights. Thanks to all,