Advice sought: Shun Fuji (SG-2) v Kramer Meiji (13c26/AEB-L)? Something else similar?

I'd really appreciate any experienced views on the following choice. It's a long post and the questionnaire follows, but here's the question in short form:

(A) Shun Fuji 8.5" Chef (SG-2 steel, much more Japanese profile than is typical for Shun) http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/shun-fuji-chefs-knife/?pkey=cshun-fuji||
OR
(B) Kramer Meiji 8" Chef ("FC61" steel, which is 13c26 or AEB-L steel, similar profile). http://www.surlatable.com/product/PRO-2138808/Bob+Kramer+Meiji+Chefs+Knives+by+Zwilling+J+A+Henckels

-I slightly prefer the cleaner damascus look of the Kramer
-I slightly prefer the less-ridged handle of the Shun
-OOTB the Shun is very sharp, sharper than a Kramer Essential (same steel) was OOTB.

I'm looking for (1) sharpness (2) edge retention (3) taller heel (4) bigger handle (5) showpiece looks that excites me about home cooking (6) a decent flat section of the blade near the heel, (7) relatively stainless is a must so I can eat the food before going back to wash it after the meal, (8) $250 is a budget cap.

What I think this community can help me with especially is the steel comparison. According to the few comparison pages I can find, SG-2 should take a narrower edge and have better edge retention at the same angle as the Kramer, is more difficult to sharpen, but generally seems to be superior. However, on more general pages about knife steels, people rave about AEB-L/13c26.

I also tried a Kramer Essential knife at home (also "FC61") and found it OOTB not quite sharp enough - but these are reportedly ground at 40-44 degrees inclusive and I didn't sharpen it beyond a little refinement on a ceramic rod.

Would the SG-2 provide a noticable edge retention benefit and therefore perceived sharpness between sharpenings? Is SG-2 so difficult to sharpen that a conscientious, intelligent, generally-pretty-handy-with-skilled-tasks novice would have trouble actually getting it sharp on a modest setup? OOTB the Shun feels definitely sharper than the Kramer did -- but that is probably just angles. After learning to sharpen would I for some reason prefer the 13c26/AEB-L? Looking at the knife as a lifetime tool, does one steel have an advantage?

Previously tried/considered and not what I'm looking for:
Tried at home:
i. Wusthof Grand Prix II. A wedge.
ii. Shun Sora. Certainly sharper, a little too short at the heel and not quite show-y enough.
iii. Yaxell Zen. Sharpest knife I've yet tried after some ceramic honing. The balance/handling and shorter profile weren't for me, but it was close. Went through everything but carrots like they weren't there at all.
Handled and used only briefly in-store:
iv. Globals. Didn't like the feel/profile.
v. Miyabi Birchwood and the other SG-2 model. Sharpness was great. Wrong profile. But honestly pretty close with the Birchwood model. This is the one I might be talked into re-considering at the more japanese profile at the heel.
vi. Shun Keiji. Hated the handle.
Considered only from afar:
vii. Tojiro DP. Richmond Artifex. Carbonext. Too short and/or didn't like the look.


Finally, questionaire info not given above:
LOCATION: USA in a large city.
KNIFE TYPE: I'm right-handed but would prefer a knife lefties could use in a pinch.
KNIFE USE: Home use. Prepping vegetables, especially my starchy favorites potatoes and carrots. Herbs. Slicing plenty of prepared proteins, obviously avoiding bones. It might be fun to break down a chicken with it, but I own a boning knife.
-Replacing a long-ago-broken-by-a-roommate Wusthof Le Cordon Bleu. I liked it at the time but am looking for something more now.
-I pinch and finger-point grip. Never Hammer.
-I use some of every cutting motion except a true up-and-down bang-into-the-board chop. Mostly slices and the smoother orbital motion sometimes called a chop.
-I use a few various wood cutting boards only.
-I do not yet sharpen, but am willing to learn and purchase a modest set-up. I use a ceramic honing rod.

Thanks!

I'd leave this to others in the forum but I have some time to kill.

As starters, in terms of geometry the Kramer has it all over the Shun for you as you describe it.

As to the edge, I believe Shun's in SG-2 have proven especially chippy. Heat treat is everything as is often said. I don't know what ZH's record is with AEB-L, but that alloy has excellent edge stability, it is a razor steel after all. For these reasons it seems the Kramer is your choice.

Then again, for $250 you have a lot of other options offering bigger bang for the buck in terms of performance, and some decent lookers too.



Rick

A couple thots. May be worth what you paid for them.

Sharpness OTB should not be a significant factor. You own sharpness. OTB may be great but what will it be next week? Suggest you focus more on ease of sharpening and a sharpening set-up.
For this reason Global, any Wusties, would be off the list. And if your new to sharpening then you don't want to learn thinning right away. Lose the Torjio (?) and any Richmond.

The look? I would not consider this significant - esp on first good knife on a budget. Pretty is good but doesn't help cutting. And you're going to scuff up the blade while sharpening anyway.

Finally suggest you focus your quest on a "laser" type knife. Readily avail in stainless. Gesshin Ginga, (Japanese Knife Imports) Suisin Inox, (Korin) Tadasuna Inox (A Frames) would all tick your boxes (except faux dammy) JKI and Korin will sharpen for you before shipping, AFrames prob would. All would be relatively easy to sharpen. All come with protective Saya. All are close to your price constraints.

Good luck in your search.

Have a look at this thread:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/23859-ZK-Meiji

I think it's post #44 that says the Meiji is thinner than the Euroline Essential. I'm thinking of getting a Meiji Parer to replace my Euroline SG-2 Damascus Parer (I find it a bit thicker than I like, plus the Meiji handle is cool), just need to find a way to get in Canada.

Thanks for the thoughtful replies so far, it is helpful. Some responses:

Kramer geometry: the Essential and Meiji both have a bit more flat at the heel than the Shun Fuji, but not a ton. The Kramer Essential heel was so tall that it made the orbital motion a little harder. It looks like the Meiji may not be as tall at the heel. Still difficult to find exact measurements.

Shuns being chippy: The Fuji is what I have in house now (after returning a Kramer Essential, I find it really helpful to test in home and take advantage of reasonable return policies). I haven't had it long, but chip-wise it has already surpassed the VG-10s I've had. The Shun Soras, even with attention to technique, microchipped in my use. The Yaxell Zen did it a lot less but still a tiny bit. So far the SG-2 Shun Fuji hasn't micro-chipped at all. Different sources of information online disagree about which has better edge retention/less micro-chipping, SG-2 or 13c26/AEB-L. Heat treat matters, but outside of knife forums bashing on usually VG-10 Shuns for being chippy, a lot of the reviews of the Fuji in particular mention excellent edge retention. Similarly, people talking about SG-2 knives in the context of kitchen knife use often say they are chippy, but all the information I can find on the steel types indicates it should have better edge retention than AEB-L. There seems to be a trade off between the hardness of SG-2 and the chemical composition/properties of 13c26/AEB-L.

Is it at all telling that SG-2 is in general much more expensive? The Fuji priced at $250 and the Miyabi Birchwood at $230 are some of the most accessible SG-2 knives of their size around. AEB-L and 13c26 can be much more cheaply had and are more widely used by custom makers. It seems particularly telling that on the even more expensive $400 Kramer Damascus line, he and Zwilling have decided to ditch the AEB-L in favor of SG-2.

I completely understand the notion that looks shouldn't matter much. Often I agree. But in diving into my own psychology, I think they do for me, now. Part of what justifies this purchase even at $250 are the virtues of home cooking, and I am a gear nut who is more likely to do an activity if the gear is really nice and pretty. I want a knife that excites me. I'd be curious to hear about what anyone thinks are good choices in the price range that are also lookers.

Sharpening: what roughly would it take to get the AEB-L Kramer to 15 degrees per side or so? How many stones/strops and what kind of money would I expect to spend? I'm willing to take more time and learn more if the slower solution here is substantially cheaper.

Thanks!

Edit: I started my reply before the last post. It would be very intriguing if the Kramer Meijis were manufactured at a sharper angle than the Essential. I may need to get one home from SLT and try it out knowing I can return it if I like.

Christopher0us said:

Sharpening: what roughly would it take to get the AEB-L Kramer to 15 degrees per side or so? How many stones/strops and what kind of money would I expect to spend? I'm willing to take more time and learn more if the slower solution here is substantially cheaper.

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I started (and am still essentially a beginner) with a couple of the Shapton Glass Stones and they served well (and still do, for home use they should last a long time) but the stone I've been most impressed with so far (in synthetic) is the Gesshin 2000. It is really fast (faster than my shapton 1000) so raising a burr only takes a few seconds unless the knife is in bad shape. Personally with that I'd say get either a 6000 or 8000 stone to finish. You can use the Murray Carter trick and use newsprint to do the final strop and you'll have very sharp knives. I'd also just suck it up and go ahead and buy an atoma 140 to flatten stones and you'll be set for a while (until you get the JNat urge lol, then hang on to your wallet.)

JKI sells a three stone set (400, 2000, 6000) that would serve for a long time for a good price http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/sharpening-supplies/shiage-toishi/gesshin-stone-set.html

That set and an atoma and you are set to as my wife puts it "rub your knives on your silly rocks". I notice she likes the sharp ones now days though lol.

Christopher0us said:

It seems particularly telling that on the even more expensive $400 Kramer Damascus line, he and Zwilling have decided to ditch the AEB-L in favor of SG-2.

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Actually the Euroline SG-2 Damascus predates the Meiji AEB-L by a few years IIRC. I don't like to think of it as "since SG-2 is more expensive and higher HRC than AEB-L, therefore Euroline Damascus is better than Meiji".

I had the Euroline Damascus santoku and found that the etched blade had some drag to it, others commented about it too. I think that the Euroline Damascus was thicker than the Euroline 52100 carbon, which was apparently thicker than Euroline Essential, which is apparently thicker than Meiji (I've never done a comparison but this is what I recall from reading various threads)

tjangula said:

I don't like to think of it as "since SG-2 is more expensive and higher HRC than AEB-L, therefore Euroline Damascus is better than Meiji".

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I didn't mean to imply the causation was that simple or straightforward. Nevertheless, across the knifemaking industry, the relative costs of SG-2 vs AEB-L knives indicates that whatever its knifemaking properties, commercially SG-2 is certainly positioned upmarket of AEB-L. It's possible that that is entirely because of manufacturing costs and that AEB-L is all things considered a better knifemaking steel than SG-2. It's also possible that SG-2 is all things considered the better steel. It seems more likely that they are each better than the other in particular ways where an overall judgment depends on the user and the application.

Here's one simple way of gathering opinions from this community that will help me: imagine two custom made knives, made exactly to your specifications for a chef's knife in terms of profile except that each is ground symmetrically at 15 degrees per side, of exactly the same cost, and the only difference is that one is AEB-L and the other is SG-2. If you can only take one home, do you care which you take home? Which? Why? Does the answer change if you do not have access to sharpening for 6 months or so?

On aesthetics and feel in use the two knives are very close for me. I got to test the Kramer Meiji at a local Sur la Table and actually cut a bunch of things up. It feels sharper than the Kramer Essential did, but also not quite as sharp as the Shun Fuji (again, OOTB). The SLT knife guy recalled that the vendor indicated the Meijis were ground thinner than either the Damascus or Essential lines, somewhere around 15-17 degrees per side, but he could not find firm documentation of that.

The out of the box bevel angles are the out of the box bevel angles. My tautology is tautological.

Bevel angle is easy to change, just sharpen at whatever angle you want. I don't really care if it's 12 or 17 degrees. I sharpen all my new knives anyway. Geometry takes more time and equipment, depending on what you're doing.

Christopher0us said:

The SLT knife guy recalled that the vendor indicated the Meijis were ground thinner than either the Damascus or Essential lines, somewhere around 15-17 degrees per side, but he could not find firm documentation of that.

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Remember that the grind of the knife (what I think you'd recognize as thinness) and the angle of the edge bevel are two very different things! Grind refers to the cross sectional geometry of the blade while the angle of the edge bevel is only that - the angle at which the edge bevel has been sharpened. Grind is a much greater contributor to performance, in part because edge bevels can be reset with relatively little work, whereas grind is a fairly static attribute. You can thin a blade but it takes a lot of careful work. And of course you cannot add steel in order to create convexity, etc.

So I would forget the distinction between the AEB-L and the SG2 and go with the knife that has the combination of profile and grind to best accomplish what you want to use it for. You said asthetics are practically equal in your eyes, so that's good. Which do you envision being the better knife for carrot and potato, which you said you cut frequently? You will want a knife that is nice and thin behind the edge to aid in cutting harder root veggies but with a decent grind that convexes to aid in the release of such foods. Carrot, when diced, and potato (always) are sticky foods!

Anyway I don't know a lot about these two knives so I can't comment on their respective properties in this regard. But I think the focus should be on these characteristics rather than the relative worth of AEB-L and SG2. You'll probably find the AEB-L a bit more forgiving and possibly easier to sharpen. You'll probably find the SG2 a bit more brittle but slightly more durable. I've used white #2 which performs very similarly to AEB-L, and SRS15, which performs very similarly to SG2. Which do I like better? The better knife

Since you already have the Shun Fuji, how about having it professionally thinned and sharpened (on waterstones) to see if you could be happy with it? Not sure where you are, but you could look into shipping it off somewhere if there is no local place.
I've heard much more about Shun's VG-10 being chipping, particularly when new. I think there is some chippiness, but many have reported improvements after a couple sharpenings. Since Shuns are so often the gateway to J-knives, I'm pretty sure a fair amount of chipping is due to lack of understanding of the differences between German and Japanese knives.
In general, I tend to agree that SG-2 is a bit more expensive and may have some performance advantages, but will be a bit more challenging to sharpen. In the end, both SG-2 and AEB-L with good heat treatment and geometry should be good performers in the hands of a competent sharpener. SG-2 should have better edge retention. At the minimum, you'll need something like a 1K/6K combo stone to maintain the sharpness.
You can learn quite a bit for free by watching Jon Broida's excellent sharpening vids on youtube.
If you take your time and work carefully, it's unlikely you'll really mess up your knife. The more you sharpen, the better you'll get. And you could always pay someone, if needed.

I think Shun does a really solid HT on their SG2. I used one for about a year in a professional kitchen as my main ride. I was given it as a gift and didn't want to use my more $$$ knives there because it was a little bit of a crazy environment and not very forgiving to carbon.

I came to really like the knife. That's true of anything you use for a long period of time, but I remember being impressed by how it cut OOTB. The grind was pretty solid but it was also the first knife I properly cared for as far as regular thinning.

It holds a good edge and is durable. I took it to a very, very acute angle, just to see how it would do. And then I hammered it on poly cutting boards, stuck the heel in thousands of avocado pits etc. It started to microchip some, mainly on the heel, but afterwards I sharpened at a higher angle and it took the same beating without any chipping.

I would still take a Takamura over a Shun, as far as bang for your buck and also because I prefer their profiles. But I think most people would be surprised how a PM Shun can handle. I was.

In my opinion , Fuji is your better choice.

The heel to spine height in my Fuji 8'' chef knife is 60mm! that's really tall, you can hardly find a 8'' gyuto with 60mm height.

The profile of 8'' fuji is flatter than kramer.

Because of the tall height, Fuji is harder to bend, which means fuji is more solid.

Hopefully my experience can help.

Christopher0us said:

Kramer geometry: the Essential and Meiji both have a bit more flat at the heel than the Shun Fuji, but not a ton. The Kramer Essential heel was so tall that it made the orbital motion a little harder. It looks like the Meiji may not be as tall at the heel. Still difficult to find exact measurements.

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I happen to have a brand new Essential 8" and Meiji 8" right here...


What you mean by geometry is actually what we typically refer to as profile (geometry is the grind). Slight difference in heel shape, and the Meiji is slightly less tall. In these particular samples: 58.5 vs 60.5 mm. The Meiji is a good bit lighter at 7.8 oz vs 9.1 oz, but both feel good and balanced in the hand.

Christopher0us said:

I also tried a Kramer Essential knife at home (also "FC61") and found it OOTB not quite sharp enough - but these are reportedly ground at 40-44 degrees inclusive and I didn't sharpen it beyond a little refinement on a ceramic rod.

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They (both) are actually about 20-25 degrees inclusive with a 70/30 asymmetric edge. I'm not sure where you got the 40-44 number from, but that's definitely not right. I had quite a bit of use on a Kramer Essential 8" this year, and after giving it a standard sharpening on my stones at 1000 and then 5000 (I used the magic marker trick and I was keeping the factory edge, and it was about 10 deg per side), it really was quite an amazing performer. If you were swiping it on a ceramic rod at 20 deg each side, that probably wasn't doing the knife many favors...

As for sharpening the two different steels, AEB-L is easier to sharpen than SG-2, but the latter isn't a ton of effort to sharpen either. I have read around here or another forum that one needs to have decent sharpening skills to begin with to really get a scary sharp edge on SG-2, and I would probably believe that, it's not as intimidating as some other high HRC steels, but it's probably not the best to learn sharpening on.

But if you already have the Shun Fuji, and you're happy with it, and you're not having chipping problems, I say it's probably a good match for you (maybe get a $50 Tojiro DP as a guest knife and also to practice sharpening?). Both that knife and the Meiji have a similar feel in hand, but the Fuji has a symmetric handle and edge (so more lefty-friendly).

Soccerman said:

Because of the tall height, Fuji is harder to bend, which means fuji is more solid.

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Kind of perplexed what you mean by this...

tjangula said:

I think that the Euroline Damascus was thicker than the Euroline 52100 carbon, which was apparently thicker than Euroline Essential, which is apparently thicker than Meiji (I've never done a comparison but this is what I recall from reading various threads)

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That's what I posted based on my impressions comparing the Essential 10" and Meiji 10" in the store, but looking at these two 8" I have at home, the grind between the two is pretty similar, but the Meiji possibly appears slightly thinner, but that could also be a bit of an optical illusion because the Meiji has fully rounded spine and choil, whereas the Essential has the edges eased, but is more square, and having rounded spine/choil will make the blade appear thinner when viewed. Regardless, both are quite thin behind the edge and have a great distal taper.

toddnmd said:

Since you already have the Shun Fuji, how about having it professionally thinned and sharpened (on waterstones) to see if you could be happy with it? Not sure where you are, but you could look into shipping it off somewhere if there is no local place.

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Doesn't sound like the OP was unhappy with the sharpness or thickness of the Shun Fuji, but instead agonizing a bit whether the grass is greener on the other side with the Kramer Meiji with different steel/aesthetics. Haven't used the Shun Fuji, but from looking at it at W-S, I wouldn't say it's in need of thinning. My recommendation would be to learn to sharpen to get your knife sharper than OOTB and then keep it that way...only worry about thinning down the road when you've used up a few mm off the edge, and the edge shoulder feels noticeably thicker.

JDA_NC said:

But I think most people would be surprised how a PM Shun can handle. I was.

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Curious, which Shun SG-2 knife were you gifted and using? Was it a Fuji?

Sorry for digging up an old post, but I figured I would let everyone know which way I wound up going.

I'm not sure what to say about some disagreement here about the edge geometry of the Kramers. From what I can find and what one guy at my SLT said (I know, I know, hardly a doubtless source), the Essentials at about 20 degrees per side and 50/50. That knife never saw a honing rod of any sort, I was just using it straight OOTB. I understand that learning to sharpen and re-sharpen knives is opening the door on the real world of knives, but as someone looking to get in on high-quality cutlery and who hasn't yet learned sharpening, I think OOTB comparisons are somewhat meaningful.

The Shun Fuji performed excellently. I was super happy with the SG-2 -- at least in my use there was no microchipping, it kept up the sharp edge through quite a bit of use, and it was sharp as makes no difference OOTB.

Of course, that isn't the knife I wound up keeping. Browsing the web I found a better price on a Shun Reserve. This looks a lot like how Shun used up the parts and production line from their collaboration with Kramer after it ended. Having really liked that sort of handle on the Kramer Essential, and preferring the cleaner ladder damascus, I returned the Fuji and bought the Reserve. I'm glad to say it is a superb knife, at least for me. It seems even sharper OOTB than the Fuji did. So far with everyday use no issues with micro-chipping, comfortable and natural in the hand for me, etc. I'm clearly impressed with Shun's SG-2 steel. I really really like this knife if anyone out there is thinking about it.

At this point the only unknown is learning how to sharpen. I expect to put the right sort of effort into that -- and practice a lot on the very cheap cutlery I have around -- in the next couple of months.

Thanks to everyone for helping me think through my choices, and thanks for setting me right on geometry vs profile and the like. I may be back before too long seeking advice on a purchase for my girlfriend, who has absolutely terrible cutting technique but now wants something much better than her Ikea knives too. Thanks!

None of the *** knives I have seen from Henckels has an edge of 20 deg per side. The ZK's are closer to an included angle of 20 deg than one of 20 deg per side. For their Miyabis, Henckels advertise an included angle of 19 deg.

The ZKramer stuff is NOT 20 degree per side, the total include angle is roughly 20-25degree closer to the 25 with each side being a bit over 10 from what I can tell. I've handled a fair few of these knives and owned a few as well as gifted others than they are most definitely NOT 20 per side. NO way NO how, lets please put that to rest.

What can I say but that I seem to have been misinformed by a kind salesperson, and it would be a lot easier for us all of manufacturers put all the specifications clearly in their sales literature. The only sales literature on the Essential Zwilling Kramer that lists an angle that I can find is 15 degrees per side quoted at Cutlery and More: http://www.cutleryandmore.com/zwill...amer/fc61-stainless-steel-chefs-knife-p133798
That same 15 degrees per side figure is quoted in several pieces of sales literature around the web for the carbon ZKs as well.

That's somewhat interesting in the case of the Essential line, as Henckels says they are taking the Miyabi Evolution line made of the same materials down to 10-ish degrees per side, which is what you guys are saying you think the Kramers are as well.

Again, I only wish the companies would provide authoritative specs on their own websites for us.

Canadian site says the sg-2 Damascus and 52100 are 30° inclusive:
http://www.zwilling.ca/zwilling/kni...ollection-chef-s-knife-10-260-mm#.VmJkjl_OfCQ
http://www.zwilling.ca/zwilling/kni...ollection-chef-s-knife-10-260-mm#.VmJktV_OfCQ

Doesn't say on the Canadian site for the essential:
http://www.zwilling.ca/zwilling/kni...ollection-chef-s-knife-10-254-mm#.VmJk5V_OfCQ

The Miyabi is 9.5-12°/side:
http://www.zwilling.ca/miyabi/knive...11-miyabi-600mcd-gyutoh-8-200-mm#.VmJlgF_OfCQ

I read something about this on ZKnives that it was either the target or due to the bevel being wider on the right side.