To Kato or not to Kato, that is the question.... Actually it's not the question but it sounds good.

So it's been a number of years since I have been on these forums or searched the knife peddlers for what's new. Trying to make up for 4 years of absence in a few days has my head spinning. There must be 3 times the number of knives available than just 4-5 years ago and Gyuotos have taken over with a near absence of single bevel knives from forums ( bummer).

Something that is interesting is the recent? Years.. The Interest in good cutting but heavyweight Gyutos. Back in 'the day' anything that was over 2mm think at the spine was way too thick and was only good if so thin it was near ready to buckle in a winter squash. Anything over 2mm was a club and old school.

Now I do like a good laser at times but heft in a knife can be very nice as well. About the only thing I liked about my stainless German chef knife that can be found if you dig deep enough in one of the kitchen drawers was there heft.

So in my re education of what's available one knife really stands out... The Kato "workhorse" gyuto. That's striking to me is the things behind the edge, but I'm preaching to the choir on this one. The other thing that's obvious and annoying is there lack of availability. But again the choir knows this song.

So last night I decided to research heavyweights to get to know them better and maybe pick one up. At about 1am with about 20 browser windows open on 10 different threads, various venders and Google Image choil shots, my browser decided it was time to go to bed and crashed. All this before I started to right down any names and organize things in my head.

So in having difficulty in remembering names of the big guns.
At the moment with all the catching up I have been doing my brain is swirling with new names and I'm having a hard time remembering who makes what, in what, how thick and who is selling what.

I do remember Kato workhorse as the current king of the hill, big kahuna, top dog...... Jefe grande? Anyways, the b/s/t part of this form is near clogged with WTB Kato posts.

So seeing as it's not likely that I will be acquiring one soon, so what are my alternatives?

Im looking for a heavyweight but "wwwafer thin" (to be heard in a French accent) behind the edge guyto. Stainless or carbon doesn't matter at the moment.

Is the Kato workhorse my only real option or is there something else that is a good alternative

What about the Masakagi Yuki guyto?

In my limited data accrual (since I'm in a similar boat to you) I can add Watanabe and Toyama as makers of hefty blades that are thin behind the edge.

The knife most like the Kato, at least in my experience, is the Gesshin Heiji, Heavy, its balance is extremely blade forward, and very good to excellent food release. Because of the sharp shoulder, it wedges slightly more than the Kato. The Heiji's tip is also thinner, if you are considering doing much tip work.

The Masakage Yuki isn't in the same league as either the Kato or the Heiji. It's a decent performer, but is much lighter than the so-called "workhorse" blades. It's more of an "all-around" knife.

I have one it's amazing but isn't a workhorse. Nice nashiji finish with a really cool handle. Thin behind the edge but can be made thinner, albeit isn't needed. Ootb it's like a 7/10 but 5 minutes on a stone 1k 5k 8k strop was what I used and got her to an 8.5/9. Other amazing workhorses that are cheaper are the tanaka from james at knives and stones. I paid 230 Canadian for a 240 blue #2 damascus blade. Really amazing cutter arguably the best bang for the buck package in the world. Masakage koishi is also amazing but I only have the 150 petty. It's just a little harder, nicer handle and feels heavier.

I agree that Heiji would definitely be worth researching. A few years ago I was researching the same thing (Kato vs Heiji) and I chose the Gesshin Heiji.

If you can afford going "customs" road, have a look at knives from Cris Anderson and Mert Tansu.

I love my Gesshin Heiji.

Will Catcheside Mono Gyutos at 4mm thick are very similar to Kato Workhorses. He has two on his site right now, also get on his mailing list for latest offerings. I have a 240 Kato, 230 and 280 Catcheside. Katos are a bit more blade heavy but you'll get a nicer handle on the Catchesides. Worth giving a look.

Here's a couple comparison shot with an iPhone.


Catcheside on Left, Kato on Right.

Those indeed look similar. How's the tip on the Catcheside?

IMO Heiji and Kato make very very different knives that should be appreciated in their own right (not that anyone here suggested otherwise). My Kato is my all time favorite of the 12+ gyutos I've owned.
FWIW the tip on my Kato workhorse is as thin as any knife I've had including lasers, the taper is excellent.

+1 on Catcheside 4mm mono.

Watanabe...made me sell my Kato workhorse...

As to Heiji, a great knife but different style...wide bevel...

Watanabe is my personal preference. :knife:

Hmm... It's been a while since I was around a Watanabe but I don't remember the blade being that thin behind the edge. In fact I seem to remember it being kinda fat.... Knida. Anyone have a choil shot of a representative Watanabe or one that would challange a Kato?

Bill

Godslayer said:

I have one it's amazing but isn't a workhorse. Nice nashiji finish with a really cool handle. Thin behind the edge but can be made thinner, albeit isn't needed. Ootb it's like a 7/10 but 5 minutes on a stone 1k 5k 8k strop was what I used and got her to an 8.5/9. Other amazing workhorses that are cheaper are the tanaka from james at knives and stones. I paid 230 Canadian for a 240 blue #2 damascus blade. Really amazing cutter arguably the best bang for the buck package in the world. Masakage koishi is also amazing but I only have the 150 petty. It's just a little harder, nicer handle and feels heavier.

Click to expand...

Which knife are you referring to in the beginning of this post?

Bill

Newbflat said:

Which knife are you referring to in the beginning of this post?

Bill

Click to expand...

The yuki by masakage(anryu)

Are the Kato's ever so slightly hollow ground?.. Some choil shots look like it but others don't.


thanks Godslayer..

My kato if pretty much a flat grind, Catchesides are a slight convex grind. Slight distal taper on kato, no so much on the Catchesides.

Newbflat said:

Are the Kato's ever so slightly hollow ground?.. Some choil shots look like it but others don't.

Click to expand...

Here's another one for you. My Kato had some convexity to it.

here's my Watanabe 240

Not screaming thin, but what I consider perfect for a 'workhorse'. Stock geometry.

If I am in your shoes, I would go with a kato or a custom by Japanese.

Another Watanabe vote. To my surprise I sold my 240 Kato (still have a 180 gyuto and petty, will probably sell the petty too) because, while I like heavier knives and also use chukabocho near half a kilo, the Kato I guess was just too big for me as a gyuto - at least 260g, longer than 240mm, small family, home cooking in a not-too-large kitchen. The Watanabe's (I have a 210, so am imagining a bit) is less of a death sword, and probably at the limit of heft when the Kato was a bit beyond the limit I found. My Watanabe is just fine, nice and thin behind the edge. In either case, you also don't hear people complain about grinds with either of these knives. (KUs being KUs, a KU from Watanabe is a different story.)

One thing I don't hear discussed these days by people with their new Katos is that they need thinning to shine. When they first came out this was discussed, but not now it seems. I'm wondering, do newer ones have thinner geometry? Were the first owners (beniek was one, I remember) more of the fearless types who were willing to undertake a big thin-out? Are newer owners less experienced and maybe a big thin doesn't occur to them? Mine was one of the early ones and I didn't find it too impressive at first, maybe a little disappointing but also as expected, and so I thinned (this takes some time and effort of course). After it sang. (I explained this in my review on JNS while still giving 5 stars - and the review was mysteriously deleted. Hmm.) Not sure about all this aside from my own experience, but I guess you'd be luckiest to find a used BST Kato from someone who has thinned and knows how to thin well. Also, as the finish on Kato is not particularly notable in my opinion, when thinning you don't face the tragedy of destroying a wonderful finish either; just a big tool that you have to adapt to get to work best.

I had a Kato and a Watanabe at the same time. I really liked both of the knives and used both pretty extensively in a professional kitchen. I liked the Kato a whole lot, especially the profile, but the Watanabe worked better as a cutter, was easier to sharpen, kept an edge for almost as long as the Kato. The only things that the Kato won out on were F&F (barely), edge retention (barely), and profile. My only beef with the Watanabe was the tip, it wasn't quite pointy enough for my taste. It was a little bit on the 240mm santoku side. I kept the Watanabe until I got a 240mm carbon Heiji, which is also awesome and has a great tip. I kind of wish I could mix the two. As far as thinness behind the edge the Watanabe was much thinner than either the Heiji or the Kato.

Could just be me but my second kato 240 is thinner at the tip.

Dardeau said:

I had a Kato and a Watanabe ....

Click to expand...

Agree with Dardeau, aside from personal preferences I guess. I like the Watanabe finish better, think it looks better, and is easier to maintain. The blue2 hagane doesn't give the same shiny contrast as some other steels, but I don't mean or mind that. You'll have to thin the Kato, but then if you want to restore the finish you won't be able to. (My solution was to kasumi it, Sanjo-style, which I think looks better.) Watanabe - thin, and then just polish along the length, which is how my Kato was after too. Also I'm happy with the more santoku-like Watanabe tip, being a chronic tip breaker as I am. (You'll see the same profile on the Toyamas.)

I've been using a 210 Kato for about 9 months or so and haven't had any need to thin it. Home cooking I think I've sharpened it maybe 3-4 times, minimal work at that. I'm slowly working my way to a mirror finish, every time it needs a sharpening I do a bit of polishing.

Why can't it just be simple :scared4:

The newer katos are not as thick as the first ones , I had jimbob s kato and didn't need any thinning . The idea of having an already thinned knife may sound appealing but unless the thinning was done by a person who knows what they are doing I wouldn't buy thinned down kato from bst

I had a kato, loved it but sold it so I have another one coming. Had a watanabe and several heiji all 240 gyutos. As much as I like the kato and watanabe the heiji would be my choice. I like the profile the best of the three with profile wise watanabe coming in last. They all cut great in my opinion but the heiji just works. Stayed sharp during professional use (they all have above average retention) , easy to sharpen and I'm a big fan of wide bevel knives. On another note not as heavy but I'm in love with my stainless clad kochi as we'll. Awesome taper, thin at the edge, great profile. I wish I had more $$$!

Good to hear my impression confirmed about newer vs older Kato. Agree the Kato geometry is tricky for thinning

TheDispossessed said:

I've been using a 210 Kato for about 9 months or so and haven't had any need to thin it.

Click to expand...

My newer 180 gyuto is fine too

This is the Kato that I sold a few months ago...one of the newer models...sorry for the angle of the pic:O



This is an original Kato workhorse, straight from Maxim (passaround knife)



Watanabe one more time:



And since it's been mentioned a few times in this thread--Heiji:



and finally, dog shake: