Help on Gyuto and Beater combo

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J

JLaz

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Hi,

I'm a working cook in a low volume fine dining establishment in search for a go-to carbon gyuto for all veg and protein prep needs and a stainless chef beater for splitting shellfish, poultry carcass, dense produce.

LOCATION
Philippines (It will be easy, though a bit more costly to purchase from the US)



KNIFE TYPE
240mm-250mm Wa-Gyuto (I am not a carbon purist. I just want pure performance as these knives will see lots of work in a professional kitchen)

240-250mm Western Beater (Preferably stainless as I don't intend to baby this knife)



KNIFE USE
I currently use a 250mm molybenium vanadium Across Chef Knife and a 210mm Takamura R2 (red handle). I intend in replacing the euro knife for a better beater with no bolster as the bolster is a PITA on the stones. The Takamura I intend to keep as a stainless laser for acidic veg and fruits.

I use pinch grip for almost all tasks except for slicing where I use a pointing grip. I use all cutting motions but I push cut more often as demanded by my prep.

In terms of improvement:

1. I'm hopping for a gyuto with a more fitting size than my 210mm takamura that will fly through prep, keep a very sharp edge and will be nice on the stones. I'm looking for a gyuto with a nice grind for food release, thin tip for tip work and a nice flat back end.

2. I'm hoping for a rigid beater that can fill in for all the tasks the more fragile gyuto should not do.



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
I sharpen my own knives with Tsukiji Masamoto #1000 and #5000 stones (I'm in the market for a 10k stone aswell)

I use wooden boards at home and polyboards at work

Knives I'm currently looking at:
Gyuto:
Masamoto KS 240mm
Konosuke HD2 240mm
Takamura HSPS Pro 240mm

Beater:
no idea yet.


Thank you in advance. I'm looking forward to hearing from you.


Julian
 
Masakage koishi comes to mind, but given your location I would go to knives and stones and either wait for a tanaka Blue #2 or ginsanko 240 or buy yu kurosaki's 240. For the beater I use a henckels lower end knives, Something cheap enough that I ever push it past it's limit you could replace it immediately, beaters should be cheap efficient workhorses, I think I paid 40ish cad, 30 usd and it does the job well. Hell some chefs use them as their main knives. The Takamura would also serve you well, I have the 210 and 150 migaki and the 270 suminigashi, all are amazing products.
 
Having used the Takamura 210mm, i've been using it as my go-to knife actually and a 240mm pro/blazen version is a sure performer. However, I'm thinking I want to get a somehow different kind. wa and carbon probably but I do not want to limit myself with that I just want the best possible user knife.


Marcelo Amaral said:
Hi Julian, how much money are you willing to spend on the carbon knife?
Click to expand...

I'm willing to spend around 300-500 for a really good gyuto.

Cheers,

Julian
 
JLaz said:
1. I'm hopping for a gyuto with a more fitting size than my 210mm takamura that will fly through prep, keep a very sharp edge and will be nice on the stones. I'm looking for a gyuto with a nice grind for food release, thin tip for tip work and a nice flat back end.
Click to expand...

240 kochi from B/S/T if you can get one :cool: the grind is just ridiculous. Whisper thin tip, great food release. Stunning cutter.

JLaz said:
2. I'm hoping for a rigid beater that can fill in for all the tasks the more fragile gyuto should not do.
Click to expand...

Tojiro DP F-815 (240 western deba). It's a tank.
 
Yeah.

Tojiro-DP western deba 240mm. +1
Really massive beater, that isn't scared of any task you throw at it. And is stainless, so much more care free than carbons.

Toyama gyoto might be good option for go to gyoto?! Maxim at JNS sells them.
 
Oh yeah! The Tojiro yo deba slipped my mind. Although ctkg only has the 210 in stock now. Do you know of any other american sellers that carry it?

The kochi looks promising-wide bevels, thin behind the edge, profile i like. I wish they're easy to get a hold of.

I'd prefer to buy from the US since I don't have a conveniet and cost effective way to ship from EU. Wish I got knives from jns when I was based there.
 
Kochi is a great cutter. If you can wait, you could order a stainless clad 240mm gyuto. Mine, which is iron clad, patina very quickly. Same thing for Watanabe: great cutter and easy to sharpen too, but you need to constantly wipe the knife. Takeda, even the AS (not stainless clad) kind, seems to have a slower oxidation rate once the first patina sets in. Not so easy to sharpen as Watanabe, but not a lot of wiping also, and it retains the edge for a long time once sharpened.
 
Speaking of Takeda, idk how I feel about the tall classic profile but the Sasanoha Gyuto looks very promising.

Here are what I am looking at right now:
Masamoto KS
Konosuke HD2
Kochi
Takeda AS Stainless Sasanoha Gyuto
 
Well if you want something with a similar geometry as the takamura, but longer, in carbon and with a wa handle - you could take a look at the shiro kamo migaki series at cleancut.se. Beware the highly reactive iron cladding though, that might be a deal breaker for a professional I suppose...
 
For carbon I liked this a lot. http://www.knivesandstones.com/sakai-takayuki-syousin-sakura-wa-gyuto-240mm/ I've used both 210 and 240, neither was particularly reactive, both a nice balance of heft and nimble. Don't know how James is with shipping to PI but he gets things to the US quickly and easily.

Maxim at JNS ship free worldwide with a minimum order. One of the Intinimon would be a (relatively) low cost solution for your "good" knife.

I like German for beaters, not tried a yo Deba but sounds good.
 
OP is looking for a Western beater, but in case some are wondering, let me remind those unaware that wa-styled debas are definitely not beaters despite their thin spine and heavy weight. You will chip one if using it like a butcher's heavy cleaver.
 
Yo = Western. Western Deba = club with a double bevel edge and a handle. Theory has a couple yo Deba vids that'll make you cringe.
 
Anyone know of where I can buy a Tojiro 240m Western Deba? Can't find them in stock (preferably in the US)

Thank you for all the suggestions/comments and insights. So much to learn from you guys.

Julian
 
JLaz said:
Anyone know of where I can buy a Tojiro 240m Western Deba? Can't find them in stock (preferably in the US)

Thank you for all the suggestions/comments and insights. So much to learn from you guys.

Julian
Click to expand...
Your best bet is to import it from Japan via eBay or Amazon. Pretty easy to match the price of the site you posted that way. I have never been assessed duty on purchases under 300CAD I would be surprised if they got you on that knife. Get ems shipping.
 
For a stainless beater you can always go used & get them cheaper. Try old Forschners, Lifetime Cutlery Old Homestead, made in Japan shipped to USA in 1960's high carbon stainless steel. I found several 10" blades for under 20.00 each.
 
Another option for a beater is the Fujiwara FKM yo-deba from japanesechefsknife.com
 
I currently work in a fine dining restaurant in NYC and have been using the Kono HD for the past two years. Love the knife!
Marcelo Amaral said:
Kochi is a great cutter. If you can wait, you could order a stainless clad 240mm gyuto. Mine, which is iron clad, patina very quickly. Same thing for Watanabe: great cutter and easy to sharpen too, but you need to constantly wipe the knife. Takeda, even the AS (not stainless clad) kind, seems to have a slower oxidation rate once the first patina sets in. Not so easy to sharpen as Watanabe, but not a lot of wiping also, and it retains the edge for a long time once sharpened.
Click to expand...
 
Just to give an update as to which knives are currently on my sights. Would like to hear from people who have had experience with some of the knives. I'm sure they're all be good but what I am currently looking for is a Gyuto to gift myself for a personal milestone. I'm looking for something very special and I'm sure to put it to good use in a professional kitchen. Having read about the history and tradition of Honyaki knives, this interested me in delving into reading more about them. They seem to be the perfect celebratory gift/tool/symbol that embodies art,tradition, craftsmanship and utility.

Gyuto (Cutter/Workhorse): Budget is not limited although cost is always a factor.

Masamoto KS 240
-non-Honyaki but I've handled this knife care of my sous in France. This is what convinced me I need a carbon gyuto bigger than my 210 R2 Takamura) Anyone know where one can order a Honyaki version of this?

Mizuno Honyaki 240
-not decided if White or Blue but after reading all available material online through the forums regarding this knife, I'm pretty convinced that this knife would have the characteristics I am looking for: Superb Grind, Profile, heft of a workhorse, gets/stays very sharp, added bonus of being part of honyaki tradition which I appreciate. I just don't know if the advantages of Blue#2 steel will be put to good use given that it costs twice as much as White#2.

Sukenari W#1 Honyaki 240
- A little less expensive than Mizuno and rocks White#1 steel.


Beater:
Gonbei AUS-10 240
- Can anyone confirm that if it can stand some lobster, crab, poultry bone abuse? Only advantage the Gonbei over a western deba is the possibility of the gyuto being a line knife.

Gesshin Stainless Western Deba 240
- Looks very promising. A bit more expensive than the Tojiro but I like the F&F of the Gesshin a lot from pictures.

I am awaiting for a reply from Jon regarding some of his knives but I'd like to hear from anyone who has some experience with it.
 
bkultra said:
Contact Koki @ JCK to inquire about the Masamoto honyaki
Click to expand...


Already did. Awaiting for a response.

How do you like your Honyaki Masamoto? Were you able to compare with the KS version?
 
I love it and it continues to be my favorite knife I own. I have owned the KS version and if you're looking for a large increase in performance over it you will be disappointed. The honyaki does have better edge retention but they are very similar otherwise. What you are paying for is the very high level of skill and craftsmanship it took to produce. You are also getting the best work that maker has to offer. There is a high failure rate as well that adds to the cost.

I have read that the current KS version can vary a lot in regards to quality (my KS was bought many years ago).

[video=youtube;qOHx14MMDMw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOHx14MMDMw[/video]
 
Koki said that Masamoto has sold out on Honyakis and haven't stocked up since 6 months ago.

I guess the choice now is between Sukenari and Mizuno which both seems promising. I hope someone could chime in to share a few words about the profile and geometry. I've gone through all posts in the forum containing Mizuno and Sukenari. There is not much talk about the geometry and the thickness makes it wedge.
 
For what it's worth the gentleman in the video I posted above replaced his Masamoto honyaki with a Mizuno honyaki. He spoke very highly of the Mizuno.
 
Trying to read up on the Masamoto KS and Mizuno Honyaki lead me straight to Salty's threads and videos. Though the knives fared pretty well in the videos, they are somewhat dated. I remember in a post or two where that same gent mentioned he believes they make the honyakis a little different nowadays.

Too bad I can't access his knife blog to read about his personal impressions about the knife as linked in JCK's website.
 
bkultra said:
I found an old post where Salty dog compares the Masamoto and Mizuno... (Took some digging but I found it)

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/1072-Question-Opinion-from-Salty-Dog

And here is his personal blog

http://saltyskitchen.blogspot.com
Click to expand...

Funnily, I've gone through both. Very interesting blog, very interesting man. Would be glad if he chimed in. His knife review as linked on JCK seems to be missing though.

http://www.saltyskitchenknives.com/Featured_Knife.html
 
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