Need help to choose Chef Knife

Hello to everyone, i didn't find any guidelines to open a post so if i did something wrong please let me know.

I am really a newbie in Japanese Chef Knifes so i would very appreciate if you could write in a simple way that i could understand you.

I live in Israel so it need to able to send the knife to here.
Right now i have some regular Victorinox chef knife and can't stand it any more. my main use is cutting a lot vegetable and fruits not meat or chicken. I Don't want it to be able to get rust. minimum maintains as possible unless it a must.
I am using cutting board made of Okolon. This is the best picture i found:
http://www.simhim.com/plasec.JPG

Don't know if a more D shape is better to me, i can only say that i use the wave technic to cut.

I thought buying Shun kai or Miyabi chef knife but after reading on the internet i have found out that there suppose to be a better knifes for their worth.

I willing to pay between 100$ - 200$ but if you think there are better knife at a little higher range, i'll willing to pay.
Please let me know if i should buy a sharpener tools too.

Thanks!

You can check out http://www.hocho-knife.com. They have competitive prices and will ship to Israel direct from Japan.

My few of my suggestions would be (in either a 210 mm or 240 mm gyuto as you prefer)
Masahiro MV Honyaki
http://www.hocho-knife.com/masahiro-mv-stainless-honyaki/

Sakai Takayuki 33-layer damascus VG10
http://www.hocho-knife.com/sakai-takayuki-33-layer-vg10-damascus-hammered/

Misono 440
http://www.hocho-knife.com/misono-440-hyper-chrome-molybdenum-stainless/

You can even order a King 1000/6000 whetstone for a bit over $30 from them as part of your order as well. All of those knives will serve you well (and in regards to the rust concern, even among stainless knives, these have higher chromium content than average, so they are more resistant).

There is a questionnaire template (stickied to the forum) that is usually suggested that people fill out to better assess your needs/wants.

Thank you for your answer.
I just found the guidelines so i will appreciate if you look into it:

LOCATION:
Israel

Are you right or left handed?
Right hand

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Don't really know. I am using the wave technic if its help.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
8 inch

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
Yes

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
The rage is between 100$ to 200$ but i am willing to pay a little more if you think i should


KNIFE USE
Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for :
Vegetables and fruits

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
The current one is Victorinox Chef Knife

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use?
Pinch Grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use?
Push-Cut (like wave) and Rock.

Better aesthetics:
Don't want it to rust and less maintains as possible

Comfort:
don't really know but i am guessing not too light.

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
I will prefer to be able to sharpen it myself but not to often if possible.

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
Don't know to standard but i would like it to last 6 months at least.


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
I am using cutting board made of Okolon. This is the best picture i found:
http://www.simhim.com/plasec.JPG

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes. i bought a stone with 120# 240$ grid

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
I am still willing to learn.

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes

Shalom v'baruch haba there are a lot of great choices in the $100 - $200 range, but I think it would still be helpful to know a bit more. First of all, what do you mean by "wave technique"? Do you mean a rocking motion? It is kinda a myth that japanese knives cant rock, but it can be problematic because it is more prone to torsion when pivoting (lateral stress that can result in chipping). If that is your cutting style, you may want a euro knife with a bit more "belly" and softer steel than a typical japanese gyuto, which tend to have flatter profiles, harder steels, and be on the whole better suited to a push cut motion.

If you're willing to explore different cutting techniques, then there are still other questions to answer. How much do you care about the way the knife looks, versus how well it performs? Let me give some examples to explain. I'm going to use links from a vendor located near me just to illustrate.

You can get a knife like the ohishi hammered damascus:

http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=89156

$179 USD. Decent steel (VG10). Decent fit and finish. A lot of the cost of this knife is allocated toward cosmetics. You're paying for the shiny "damascus" cladding and hammered finish on the blade. It looks nice. But the grind is nothing special. Flat. Unnuanced. Still, the knife cuts much better than what most people are used to. But it's relatively thick behind the edge, has a rather unrefined out of the box edge, and basically fails to impress compared to what many people around here are used to.

Or, by contrast, you could buy the Akifusa SRS15:

http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=85649

Costs $219. This knife will not win a beauty contest. Has an almost clinical appearance. Very no nonsense. Not a bad thing necessarily. I actually like the simplicity and aggression. But the knife is a terrific performer. The core steel -- SRS15 -- is a high tech powdered metallurgy steel that takes a very good edge and can hold it well, even at relatively extreme edge geometry. It is much better balanced than the hammered damascus blade above, with a good distal taper. It outperforms the other knife by many orders of magnitude.

So that's what I mean when I say that there is wide variability between knives in the same approximate price point. All depends on what kind of knife you are looking for.

My real suggestion for you at this point is to learn to hand sharpen. This will give you the most long term satisfaction as you continue your inevitable journey into japanese knives

So I suggest getting a Tojiro DP 240mm gyuto here:

http://www.hocho-knife.com/tojiro-dp-cobalt-alloy-3-layers-chef-knife-gyuto-240mm/

This knife is the best bang for the buck in the world. Only $65.99. Then use the money you save to buy two other things. First, get a 1K/6K combo stone. Second, buy a lapping or flattening stone or plate to keep your stones flat and even. Then watch Jon Broida's sharpening videos online. Learn to sharpen your knife. Through all the trial and error, you will gain a ton of knowledge about what makes a knife work. Then you can move on to new knives and new experiences. You will not regret it!

B'hatzlakha :biggrin:

Toda Raba (Thank you).

I don't care about how the knife looks but rather how good it can be.
It is very logic what you are saying that i shouldn't jump into deep water so soon but just to be sure because i was ready to spend more bucks for the knife so i could have a piece of mind. Maybe i should get a little more expensive knife that will guarantee a "surgical" cut? (and maybe there will be a good sale on cyber monday).

The Wave technic i mention is more like push and pull (i have added more proper details above)

"you may want a euro knife with a bit more "belly" and softer steel than a typical japanese gyuto"

Click to expand...

I think you are right!

nirmitlamed said:

The Wave technic i mention is more like push and pull (i have added more proper details above)

Click to expand...

J Knives will be just fine with this as long as you are being careful not to torque the knife. The best way to explain that i think is that you are being careful to keep the knife at 90 degrees to the cutting board. Think of an airplane, which can move in three ways (pitch, yaw, and roll) . . .



You can change pitch as you make contact with the board in a wave or rock technique, but want to be careful to avoid yaw and roll. That way the stress on the blade is distributed along the blade's strongest axis, which is from edge to spine.

Anyway, I wouldn't give up on J Knives and most people here will tell you the same. If you want to spend $100+ on your first knife that is completely your choice! For ~$150 outside of the EU I would recommend the Itinomonn StainLess 210 kasumi:

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-stainless-kasumi-210mm-wa-gyuto/

It's a semi-stainless core steel so it will take some patina but you will not have to deal with rust. Simple D handle, for right-handed users. The pictures show a nice taper and grind. Rounded spine/choil for comfort. And I know these knives get a lot of respect around here.

But I would still get the 1K/6K stone and flattening/lapping stone or plate. Otherwise your knife will dull with regular use and then you will have a nice dull knife, which is just a dull knife b'sof ha'yom

All great suggestions. In addition only: for your first Japanese knife I would choose a middle-of-the-road one as far as profile is concerned. Relatively but not overly low tip, some flatness. As for the material, simple carbon steel is by far the easiest to learn sharpening. Once you have forced a patina on it --we will explain... -- it doesn't require much more maintenance than a stainless one. Or you may look at blades with a carbon core and stainless cladding.
Anyway, have a look at JCK, japanesechefsknife.com
Don't hesitate to ask it's owner, Mr Iwahara, any questions. [email protected]

Might want to check out the Tojiro Powder Steel. They have a very nice grind and steel similar to the Akifusa. The Tojiro Dp prices do make it a terrific deal, but the extra coin for the Tojiro powder definitely worth it.

chiffonodd, Thank you so much. A lot of good information!

The ITINOMONN STAINLESS KASUMI 210MM WA GYUTO looks really nice but of curse its just me not understanding the specs only how it looks.

I'll watch closely for this knife. Maybe a good deal is coming

Benuser said:

All great suggestions. In addition only: for your first Japanese knife I would choose a middle-of-the-road one as far as profile is concerned. Relatively but not overly low tip, some flatness. As for the material, simple carbon steel is by far the easiest to learn sharpening. Once you have forced a patina on it --we will explain... -- it doesn't require much more maintenance than a stainless one. Or you may look at blades with a carbon core and stainless cladding.
Anyway, have a look at JCK, japanesechefsknife.com
Don't hesitate to ask it's owner, Mr Iwahara, any questions. [email protected]

Click to expand...

Very interesting how to force Patina. Never knew about this untill now. Would i need to do this with the ITINOMONN STAINLESS KASUMI 210MM WA GYUTO or not because it is a stainless?

keithsaltydog said:

Might want to check out the Tojiro Powder Steel. They have a very nice grind and steel similar to the Akifusa. The Tojiro Dp prices do make it a terrific deal, but the extra coin for the Tojiro powder definitely worth it.

Click to expand...

Thanks i will look into this.
So much information, hope not to get confuse.

Only fairly reactive carbon mono-steel blades require a forced patina if you want to ease daily maintenance from day one.

chiffonodd,
I was thinking seriously about the advice for the Tojiro DP 240mm gyuto. If i understand correctly its almost the same quality as the Shun Kai but less bucks to spend.
If i do decide to purchase this one, how often i will need to sharpen it if i use it every day?

nirmitlamed said:

chiffonodd,
I was thinking seriously about the advice for the Tojiro DP 240mm gyuto. If i understand correctly its almost the same quality as the Shun Kai but less bucks to spend.
If i do decide to purchase this one, how often i will need to sharpen it if i use it every day?

Click to expand...

The Shun classic line uses vg10, which is the same core steel, but that's about where the similarities end. There are so many different lines of Shuns that it's difficult if not impossible to make blanket statements. But regarding the Shun classic, this is another knife where you're paying a premium for fit and finish, consistency, asthetics (which in this case I don't actually like), and a general mark-up tolerated by the intended market, which is high-end retail. Many people also complain that the Shun classic chef knives have clunky German profiles. This is problematic mainly because Japanese steel is not designed to be used in the same way as a thick, large-bellied German knife. The result -- especially when combined wIth the care and maintenance habits of its target demographic -- is a lot of chipping.

So I would still get the Tojiro DP, the 1K/6K stone, and a flattening stone or plate. If you just feel like the Tojiro is not fine enough, then expore the other knives mentioned by others above. Ultimately you want to leave room for the sharpening gear because is what will allow you to get the most out of knives in the long run. And it will be a long run, believe me. Once you start there's no going back!

Tojiro DP knives hold their edges quite well at home, so no need to sharpen them too often. Unless you make very big family meals every day and cut up 20k plus stuff, but even so it will hold up for a week. (Assuming you're not banging the knife unnecessarily on the board, scraping food with the edge, or do other silly things.)
Few sweeps on a very fine ceramic rod and you're good to go.
You can get 1k and a 3k/5k stone as well and you're still in the budget of $200.

No fun starting sharpening VG-10. Have a carbon steel.

Benuser said:

No fun starting sharpening VG-10. Have a carbon steel.

Click to expand...

Well the Misono sweden dragon 240 is on sale at JCK for $134 . . .

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/SwedenSteelSeries.html

Exactly.

I also vote for the Tojiro DP. Great knife at the price, and VG-10 isn't that hard to sharpen -- worst part is getting the last traces of the burr off, and a 6k stone will work for that with a bit of practice.

I found it much easier to use than my more traditionally German knives when I got it, mostly because it was sharp all the way to the tip. Only problem I have is that I got a 210 mm and not will have to replace it with a 240 when I get my new cutting board finished.

Not a flashy knife, but it's very sharp, I've had no trouble getting a very nice edge on it with a Bester 1200 and a King 6000. The King 1000/6000 stone will work fine as long as you are careful to keep the 1000 side flat, it dishes rather quickly.

Once you think you've "outgrown" that DP you will know more what you want in a knife and can replace it with something nicer.

Peter

Thank you all for helping out!

So if i go with stainless steel i need to know that it won't get rust but with vg-10 i would need to be more patient sharpening it. On the other hand, carbon steel can get rust and need to be taken care off more frequently but i can get it sharpen more easily at home.

I watched the below youtube video of how to maintain a carbon steel knife. Are the towels really necessary?
[video=youtube;tza5pymb5yg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tza5pymb5yg[/video]

I saw on amazon wet stone 1000# 6000# grit
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001DT1X9O/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
is that enough or should i get something better since this is high level knife (Misono sweden dragon). On japanesechefsknife website there are some wet stones but not 1000# & 6000# and they are more pricey so should i go with japanesechefsknife or amazon or other better deal?

By the way right now i have 120# & 240# grit wet stone. Maybe this is why i have difficult making my knife sharp like a new one?

I saw that most of the time you are recommending 24cm knifes. All my knifes were 20cm so is it ok to go to 24cm?

VG-10 sharpens pretty easily, some people just find it a bit annoying to deburr, but I've had no problems. There are really good videos out there to learn from. You've stated that stain resistance is important to you, and I would not recommend carbon steel. Different people here will have different preferences and viewpoints. If you try to conform to all of them, you'll go crazy.

I think you are right. I was thinking about it and right now i don't see myself managing taking good care of the knife which will be a waste after spending a lot of money.
I came to a conclusion that most people here will agree unless there is a better choice (maybe a really good deal), that i should buy the Tojiro DP Cobalt Alloy 3 Layers Chef Knife(Gyuto) 240mm. With this knife i don't have to think about rust and it would be a proper introduction to Japanese knives world.

The only thing i am afraid of is the back heel i read about on amazon by someone that purchased it
http://www.amazon.com/review/RQSYI8...ce&nodeID=284507&store=kitchen#wasThisHelpful

This is how it supposed to be?

It doesn't happen often, but it can happy even on a $200+ knife. FWIW, for the 5 Tojiro's I've come across personally, they didn't have an underground heel, but I wouldn't be surprised if occasionally some got past QA. I don't think Tojiro is notorious for having this problem, from what I gather, but maybe others can chime in. I will say though, that particular defect is probably unheard of for Shun or Miyabi. But I really wouldn't worry too much, personally speaking.

I just saw this knife Richmond Artifex AEB-L Gyuto 240mm which is now cost 75$ and read that it is better than Tojiro. I know there isn't an end to this but maybe i should still add a few bucks.
http://www.This Site Not Allowed Here.com.com/riar24gy.html

edit:
i am answering to my self

The Artifex requires a lot of thinning of the grind before it is a passable performer. If you have access to a belt grinder, it's a possibility, otherwise give it a pass.

The FKH is a decent knife, but the SK4 steel it is made of is extremely reactive with foods like onions, and in my experience will turn them brown even after building a patina. The FKM series from Fujiwara is stainless and comparable to the FKH, but it's not among the knives you specified. (It's what I would choose if it was in the running.)

Of the three, the DP is the knife I would choose at that price point. Decent fit and finish, easy to maintain, and useable OOTB without any big modifications.

Rick

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/20008-Tojiro-DP-Fujiwara-FKH-or-Richmond-Artifex

Click to expand...

Those are the items i am thinking to buy:

Tojiro DP Cobalt Alloy 3 Layers Chef Knife(Gyuto) 240mm
http://www.hocho-knife.com/tojiro-dp-cobalt-alloy-3-layers-chef-knife-gyuto-240mm/

King Combination Grit Waterstone (Grinding stone) #1000/#6000 that comes with plastic stand (should i get a better stand?)
http://www.hocho-knife.com/king-1000-6000-combination-grit-waterstone-grinding-stone-kw-65-ht-65/#

Super Togeru Ceramic Sharpening Guide Sharpening Tool (do i need something like this?)
http://www.hocho-knife.com/super-togeru-ceramic-sharpening-guide-sharpening-tool/

I want to buy a nice knife case too but not too pricey like the ones here:
http://www.hocho-knife.com/knife-case-bag/

The undergrind on the heel is easy to fix. Mine has one, very slight, that I didn't notice until I saw a much worse example here. Simply sharpen it off, the factory edge typically won't hold well anyway. Might take a bit on just a 1200 grit stone, but not that long.

I personally wouldn't bother with the guide, they are in fact quite fiddly in use, especially as you approach the tip of the knife, and I find I REALLY like the tip of my tojiro super sharp. You won't ruin the knife learning to sharpen it, even if you don't get a good edge freehand the first couple times.

Something to protect yourself from the edge is a good idea if you are transporting the knife, the box will work for a while but will wear out fast. They are sharp enough that a jolt will cause them to cut through many materials. I made a saya for mine, but currently store it in a knife block. I don't travel with it.

The Richmond Artifex may be a "better" knife, but is reputed to be thicker behind the edge and may need more work by you after you get it to work well, Mark has stated he purposely specified a more robust geometry for line use. Whether that is true or not, most people find they need to thin it to get it to work as they prefer, and the Tojiro, while it often benefits from thinning, works well enough out of the box. You can concentrate on learning to use it and to sharpen it without needing to thin it right away.

Peter

Thank you. I think the best option is to wait to cyber Monday and see if there is some good deal that I should not miss. If not I will probably go with tojiro. Thanks!

Make sure you tune in to Epicurean Edge Cyber sale. It starts 2nite and while I doubt they will offer much in a sub 100 category you never know. There will be good deals.

For inexpensive, entry level knives I usually recommend (and gift) JKI's Gesshin Stainless or Suisin Western INOX from Korin. Both about 100 bucks. No concerns on QA. Both ready to go out of the box.

daveb said:

Make sure you tune in to Epicurean Edge Cyber sale. It starts 2nite and while I doubt they will offer much in a sub 100 category you never know. There will be good deals.

For inexpensive, entry level knives I usually recommend (and gift) JKI's Gesshin Stainless or Suisin Western INOX from Korin. Both about 100 bucks. No concerns on QA. Both ready to go out of the box.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the advice. I actually tends towards JKI Gesshin and left a message on his website yesterday but hasn't received a reply yet They are probably busy but i am really hopping to hear from them today.

I know that probably the Tojiro DP will be a pretty good fit for me right now but i would still like to get a better knife that i could appreciate it for a few years to come. As much as i can tell there are good feedbacks from people purchasing from JKI.

Honestly i really want to purchase the waterstone from the same place but why there is so much price difference?
On amazon King Japanese Grit 1000/6000 (big size) 58$ http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00M8P96QE/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

on JKI GESSHIN 1000/6000 COMBO STONE 135$ which is even higher price from the knife.
http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...stones/products/gesshin-1000-6000-combo-stone

If you're willing to wait, you can order Terayasu Fujiwara knives directly from him in Japan. His prices are pretty reasonable but depending on if he has the knife your are looking for, it could take a number of weeks for him to get around making it.

As a matter of fact, there are a number of Japanese makers who sell abroad. Shosui Takeda sells abroad as well. He returned my email in roughly 2-3 days with a the blade I was looking for and availabilities.

Good luck.

nirmitlamed said:

Honestly i really want to purchase the waterstone from the same place but why there is so much price difference?
On amazon King Japanese Grit 1000/6000 (big size) 58$ http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00M8P96QE/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

on JKI GESSHIN 1000/6000 COMBO STONE 135$ which is even higher price from the knife.
http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...stones/products/gesshin-1000-6000-combo-stone

Click to expand...

The King Combo cited is a marriage of two marginal stones. The 1K side will dish and wear out much faster than the 6K. The one's I've seen were also smaller than the JKI. The JKI combo is a more balanced marriage of two good stones. If you price the individual stones that make up each combo you will see the price differential is consistent. Is it worth the price difference? That's up to you. I think it is.