Imanishi Tamago 4k Winning edge, but the stone is loading up, what am I doing wrong?

I just received my 1st full size stone, Imanishi Tamago 4k, from SolidSnake. Totally love the edges I'm getting on various grades of Japanese clad, carbon, and stainless blades. Trying to see what I can do without finishing with a strop, and just stropping as maintenance.

The stone is loading up as I work the edges. Only when I laid a blade flat and worked it did the stone clean up and get some mud. After that it seemed to load up again. I'm keeping it pretty wet, so water is standing on the stone. (And...ugh...pretty easy to put a divot in it also.) Too much pressure causing all my issues?

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My experience with Imanishi stones is that you need to abrade some of the surface before they behave normally. For whatever reason, the surface is much different than the rest of the stone and loads up, refuses to cut, etc. Flatten it some and it should work normally.

I think I have the same stone (Imanishi 4k) but mine is gray, I believe, and did load up to start with. Once I got it flattened a bit it worked like any other waterstone, makes some mud with use and doesn't load up much. More than a Bester 1200, less than a King 6000 anyway. I also have a no-name 3000 grit stone (bright yellow) that loaded up like crazy, it was hard to use. Wore badly too, which you wouldn't expect with a big black smear on steel on it.

Peter

Thanks Peter.

Did I mention I delayed a trip out of town so I could play with the new stone? :wink:

There is a 1 inch wood carving detail knife that has been giving me fits because it is shaped for slicing cuts, is a little thick, with a definite bevel that gets convexed from strops. I have been at loss with it until today; flattened the bevels again on 1k then finished with the I.T. 4k, no strop, and it slices very very well now.

Haven't used mine enough to get a feel for how the edges work, but I do suggest you get some smooth, hard wood and use that as a strop for you carving knife -- that way you won't convex the edge, or worse round it over. I've been using a piece of 2x4 for some years how, with green chromium oxide. Works great on woodworking tools.

Which reminds me, I need to sharpen some chisels today.

Peter

Got the same stone and have the same problem.

I tried light pressure, heavy pressure, stainless, carbon, aggressive flattening, soaking for 15 mins to days and nothing works.

The only way it works is to use a small dmt xxc stone to constantly unload it. (every 10 strokes around)

If anyone knows the correct way to use this stone please advice. Constantly having to unload it is annoying.

Same here with my 2 Imanishis (4k and 8k). After finishing the sharpening I use the Chosera nagura to unload them. They work great :knife:

Does the loading up make the stone not work correctly?

I ask because lots of stones load up yet still work fine. It's a non-issue for me in almost all cases.

it's more an optical than a functional issue.

Dave Martell said:

Does the loading up make the stone not work correctly?

I ask because lots of stones load up yet still work fine. It's a non-issue for me in almost all cases.

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If I let it load more that what my picture shows the stone feels different, it will have spots that my knives do not move across with the same amount of friction. I did find if I get some mud on it (via rubbing a 220 Shapton across it a little) the Imanishi will stay cleaner. But that makes it harder for me to visually see when the blade edge just meets the stone as I try to keep the angle consistent.

Solidsnake wrote back to me also saying less pressure just works better - less wear and loading. I'm used to a Shapton 220 glass and Chosera which seem very hard in comparison.

I have read reports that indicate the presence of some lacquer like material on the surface of the stone as delivered, and you must remove that material before it behaves properly. Don't know if this is true, but a good flattening should give you a representative surface.

Takenoko and Kitayama stones appear waxy on the surface as shipped, must be binder on the surface coating the grit. Both worked much better after I abraded the surface.

Mine is mounted, appears normal to me.

Peter

Yeah you definitely have to lap stones when they're new.

Pressure can make a difference in stone's loading and cut rates. Some people find light pressure works best while others use a lot of pressure. I'm of the more pressure camp myself, just because some stones seem to need downward pressure to force water out of the stone under the edge for lubrication....Beston 500x is a good example of this. I'm in no way saying that a lot of pressure is going to keep stones free of loading up because I don't believe that, just that it sometimes helps....it can also make it worse too.

There's just too many variables to consider to give accurate advice here.

Dave Martell said:

Yeah you definitely have to lap stones when they're new.
....
There's just too many variables to consider to give accurate advice here.

Click to expand...

Well, I am getting good advice because we are considering the variables. As it turns out there's almost nothing I do (non-professional) where data is not subjective. What fun would it be if there was always one right answer anyway?

After my last post I worked over a 440c-class scandi type bevel. With this steel almost no pressure and keeping the stone very wet gave completely different results. What appeared to be loading just wiped away with my fingers and the finish is much nicer. Didn't take any longer that before when I was using some pressure.

Oh ya, and no gouges in the stone this time.

Mabey Solidsnake could jump in and give some idea if he took enough off the surface so I am working with the abrasive and binder and not fighting lacquer. I would have no idea how deep lacquer would go into a stone.

I find my bester likes more pressure than my king. I go light on the polishing stones always, find it's pretty rare that they ever load up.

I noticed that LV lists bester/imanishi stones together, not sure if they're really from the same maker.

Japanese names can be very confusing, but I think Imanishi is the actual maker of all the stones in that group. They are sold under different names (Beston, Bester, Inamishi, and probably others).

I could easily be wrong though.

I find that less pressure is better in almost all cases, particularly coarse stones. They don't cut any faster, but they dish like mad if you push hard. Might not work that way with anyone else, but coming from Arkansas stones, the pressure needed for waterstones is very light.

Peter

Success last night with a 1 inch carving knife which still was not cutting easily. I focused on minimal pressure, letting the stone do the work. Duh.

I doubt that I would have appreciated waterstones had I not tried just about every new and improved method first, including guided sharpeners, cheap stones, sandpaper/glass, whetstones and even one time a costly countertop kitchen knife grinder.

Nothing compares with the control, speed, and ease of waterstones. Too bad though for all the time and money wasted with inferior tools.

Thanks for the help!

Sounds like you got it Gene!

Regarding taking material off the top, I rounded the edges and took off maybe 1mm in height from the top then sharpened a few knives on it but that's about all. Taking that first 1mm off should have been enough to remove anything on it

Anyhow, yeah with this stone I really found a more gentle touch to me best

Some of us learn fast and some of us learn more slowly -- just the way it is.

Waterstones are great, but you do have to adjust to them, and if you started on Arkansas stones as many people my age did, it's quite a bit different. You have to PUSH to get fine Arkansas to cut high hardness steel. Do that on waterstones and you will wear them very fast!

Peter