Looking for a first chef's knife

Japanese Knives - by Tokushu Knife
Find deals on amazon
Miura knives
Kitchen Knife Forums

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
V

volta

New Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
3
Reaction score
0
I'm looking for a first (and hopefully my last for many years) chef's knife and have a budget of around $200, willing to spend up to $240 maximum. The characteristics I'm looking for include:

  • thin blade - 10-14 degree grind is ideal
  • A unique, non-Western handle style such as the Shun Fuji Chefs Knife's handle.
  • Can still be Japanese style and ergonomically formed, such as
  • tall blade (dimension from blade edge to spine)
  • large, thick handle - no less than 5.5 inches as I like to have a sturdy grip on the knife
  • concave bolster for an easy pinch grip
  • 58-60 Rockwell hardness scale interior steel - I've mostly read that this is a great balance between edge retention and chip resistance as long as the knife is treated well and dried immediately after use
  • Dimpling/hammering to prevent food from sticking. I would prefer a random-looking dimpling to the classic hollow-ground dimpling that many German blades feature as it's just so boring.
  • Damascus pattern preferable (although if this is present I would only like it to be a result of steel folding (minimum 15 layers per side) and not simply printed on (which often signifies a cheap knife and fades with time)
  • Chef's style with curved cutting belly, not Santuko

The knives I've considered so far (to give you a visual sense of my style preferences) are:

Any comparison between these listed would be stellar!

The above items are all for an ideal world but I am open to suggestions. I've spent the whole day researching and many hours before that and have discovered that Shun's mass produced knives tend to be overpriced for what they are with lots of forum users saying they "have plenty of other better quality knives in mind for that kind of money", but never mention what they are. Any wowing suggestions that meet most or all of the above criteria? Thanks in advance
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks for your suggestions HomeCook, but I use a pinch grip quite frequently and the handles of the knives you mentioned do not have bolsters that easily accommodate a pinch grip.
 
You don't need bolsters to pinch grip. At least I don't see any trouble there.
 
A few points of clarification below.

volta said:
I'm looking for a first (and hopefully my last for many years) chef's knife and have a budget of around $200, willing to spend up to $240 maximum. The characteristics I'm looking for include:

  • thin blade - 10-14 degree grind is ideal
  • 58-60 Rockwell hardness scale interior steel - I've mostly read that this is a great balance between edge retention and chip resistance as long as the knife is treated well and dried immediately after use
  • Dimpling/hammering to prevent food from sticking. I would prefer a random-looking dimpling to the classic hollow-ground dimpling that many German blades feature as it's just so boring.
  • Damascus pattern preferable (although if this is present I would only like it to be a result of steel folding (minimum 15 layers per side) and not simply printed on (which often signifies a cheap knife and fades with time)
Click to expand...

How thin the knife is just behind the edge (the shoulder) is actually very important, and somewhat independent of the bevel angle on the edge. You can have a thicker knife with a 10 degree per side edge bevel vs. a thin laser knife @ 15 deg per side and the latter will cut smoother and wedge less.

Just note the Fuji is a harder SG-2 powder steel at ~HRC63-64, very strong and takes a very sharp edge and holds it a long time, but you need to be a bit careful to prevent chipping...actually I'd say that for all the ones you have selected, but if you are not reckless with your knives, chipping won't be a problem. (For knives that are tougher, closer to the HRC58-59 is typical). Drying the knives immediately after use is not a big issue with stain-resistant knives, and steels like VG-10 and SG-2 in the Shuns you've mentioned have a pretty high chromium content at ~15%. That said, it's still better to get into a habit of hand-drying your knives after use, and not let water-spots develop. They won't come out with soap and water, and act as spots of micro-corrosion, which if near the edge will over time weaken the steel there and can affect performance. They easily come out with BarKeeper's Friend though, so definitely not the end of the world if you get them. Carbon steel is a completely different animal and you need to be disciplined with drying and also wiping the blade after cutting something acidic.

I'd estimate with 80+% of knives out there, the hammering and dimples actually make very difference for preventing sticking, but instead whether there is some convexing of the profile on the part of the blade making contact with the food. The dimples can be counter-productive because they are often too close to the edge, and effectively shorten the life of the knife because once you sharpen the knife to the grantons, you don't have a proper straight edge anymore.

Damascus - not sure I'm aware of knives that have this "printed on", but just be aware that damascus-cladding and how many layers it is has is purely ornamental — unless you're talking about the rare case where the damascus steel actually makes up the core steel of the knife (not often discussed here as they aren't many of them, and they are at the 4 figure price-point and up). The only distinction is that it's a "clad" knife vs a mono-steel knife. It doesn't really matter whether it's clad in a single layer of soft stainless or 100 layers of damascus.
 
volta said:
The knives I've considered so far (to give you a visual sense of my style preferences) are:

Any comparison between these listed would be stellar!

The above items are all for an ideal world but I am open to suggestions. I've spent the whole day researching and many hours before that and have discovered that Shun's mass produced knives tend to be overpriced for what they are with lots of forum users saying they "have plenty of other better quality knives in mind for that kind of money", but never mention what they are. Any wowing suggestions that meet most or all of the above criteria? Thanks in advance
Click to expand...

Some of Shun knives can be overpriced, particularly at the normal retail price (ignore the "suggested price"), but both the Shun Fuji 8.5" and the Shun Classic 8" are on promo sale right now, which makes their pricing pretty reasonable actually. But most here (myself included) don't like the big belly curve on most Shun chef knives, which are closer to German chef knife shapes, whereas gyutos are closer to French chef knife shapes and are flatter with less belly (and some more flat than others). The Shun Fuji actually has a pretty good profile with some curve but not too much for my tastes (it's not like a typical gyuto, since it's so tall, but it's pretty close to a Kramer) and it feels very good in the hand, and I could see myself with one if I didn't already have a Zwilling Kramer Meiji in that size. Your question about the two different Kramers you liked to, the first is a carbon steel knife, the second is a stainless knife (using SG-2 powder steel) and damascus-clad.

Reading your post, I suspect you would likely enjoy the Shun Fuji knife. It's regular price is $400, which is quite spendy, but at $250 right now it's a good value, especially if you like it and find it comfortable (I did find it comfortable in the hand). I don't have extensive use with the Shun Fuji, but it seems like a good knife and there's been positive feedback from its owners here. I suspect its hammered surface will actually will benefit non-stick properties. I recently got a Shun Hiro 7" santoku, and it also has a hammered/textured damascus pattern that extends far down the blade. Even though the grind is flat, potatoes don't stick to it much. Alternatively you can also consider the Shun Hiro 8" chef knife, since it seems the curved belly is ok for you. It has a Japanese-inspired, ergonomic handle with a comfortable palm swell, that while different than the Shun Fuji, is also very nice to hold. While normally around $330, it's currently on sale for $200, so it's a bit of savings over the Fuji as well if you also happen to like it. The Shun Hiro is ground very thin behind the edge (same steel as the Fuji), and I highly suspect even thinner than the Fuji, which is already a good performer.

Zwilling Kramer are great knives too and I have two of those (Meiji 8" and Essentials 10"), but there's no specials on any of them right now from Zwilling (they did have some in Nov/Dec, but they just ended so it'll likely be a while till the next time). The Essentials while still a good value at regular price, it is simple and conventional looking, and you have expressed a desire for the damascus and less Western look, and something like that will be either $300 or $400 for an 8" for either the Meiji or the SG-2 Damsacus.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
what about those people who would contend stickage is primarily a function of technique...!
 
I don't think anything I've said precludes technique from being a contributing factor towards better food release...I know I will adjust my technique to reducing sticking when cutting potatoes (vs other vegetables).
 
Richard, thank you for the detailed explanation of the steels i've identified and the nature of damascus cladding. So it's essentially between the lower end Zwilling-Kramer Essentials 8" (which you said was SG-2 powder steel, it's $199 on Sur La Table) and the Shun Fuji for ~$250. I'd love a Kramer Meiji (best of all worlds) but it's unfortunately sold out of the 8" pretty much anywhere. I'm going to head to a local Sur La Table shop tomorrow and try an 8 and 10" Zwilling Kramer just to get a feel for the heft/blade length I want. I may walk out of the store with one, I've heard people can fall in love ;). Do you think the steel on the Fuji is harder than that of the Kramer Essentials? I'm trying to keep the Rockwell below or as close to 60 as possible, as it goes higher chipping becomes much more prone as I'm sure you're aware. So if it truly comes down to it I may just go for the softer steel between the two (as they're both so hard).
 
richard said:
A few points of clarification below.

Damascus - not sure I'm aware of knives that have this "printed on", but just be aware that damascus-cladding and how many layers it is has is purely ornamental — unless you're talking about the rare case where the damascus steel actually makes up the core steel of the knife (not often discussed here as they aren't many of them, and they are at the 4 figure price-point and up). The only distinction is that it's a "clad" knife vs a mono-steel knife. It doesn't really matter whether it's clad in a single layer of soft stainless or 100 layers of damascus.
Click to expand...

Richard just to correct you. It is ver rare that damascus makes up the core steel as you say (refering to san mai where there is a core present ) most cases, well all i know of, the damascus is the blade. Aka like monosteel. Also. Not all full damascus blades are 4 figures and up. There are some very good makers ( one particular vendor of this forum ) that makes them at reasonably below that price point. Though still at least double the OP budget.
 
volta said:
Richard, thank you for the detailed explanation of the steels i've identified and the nature of damascus cladding. So it's essentially between the lower end Zwilling-Kramer Essentials 8" (which you said was SG-2 powder steel, it's $199 on Sur La Table) and the Shun Fuji for ~$250. I'd love a Kramer Meiji (best of all worlds) but it's unfortunately sold out of the 8" pretty much anywhere. I'm going to head to a local Sur La Table shop tomorrow and try an 8 and 10" Zwilling Kramer just to get a feel for the heft/blade length I want. I may walk out of the store with one, I've heard people can fall in love ;). Do you think the steel on the Fuji is harder than that of the Kramer Essentials? I'm trying to keep the Rockwell below or as close to 60 as possible, as it goes higher chipping becomes much more prone as I'm sure you're aware. So if it truly comes down to it I may just go for the softer steel between the two (as they're both so hard).
Click to expand...

Sorry I was seeing 2/3 of the Zwilling Kramer links you posted. The Essentials and Meiji line are made from a steel Zwilling labels as "FC61" fine carbine steel @ ~HRC61, and all signs point to that steel being AEB-L (aka 13C26). It's a very fine grained and pretty hard stainless steel that sharpens easily almost like carbon. Edge retention is good, though not as good as PM steels like SG-2. I do recommend trying them out in person to see how they feel in your hand (and SLT will typically let you try cutting stuff with the display knives, though note that the edge condition for display knives will vary on use/maintenaince, so depending the one you try may not be as sharp as it can really get). If you can, also check out a Williams Sonoma to take a look at the Shun Fuji and Hiro chef knives. If you are that worried about chipping though, then I'd say go for the Zwilling Kramer Essentials or Meiji...AEB-L is known to still pretty quite be tough when hardened around HRC61, and experts say it is more likely to deform before chipping compared to other steels hardened over HRC60.
 
malexthekid said:
Richard just to correct you. It is ver rare that damascus makes up the core steel as you say (refering to san mai where there is a core present ) most cases, well all i know of, the damascus is the blade. Aka like monosteel. Also. Not all full damascus blades are 4 figures and up. There are some very good makers ( one particular vendor of this forum ) that makes them at reasonably below that price point. Though still at least double the OP budget.
Click to expand...

It was a particular knife I had in mind that is over $1000, but now that you mention it, I do remember sub-$1000 damascus-steel (cutting edge) knives on JCK specials page before.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Back
Top