Really, really stupid question about highest-end custom knives

I really, really do appreciate the creativity, artistry, and often the breathtaking beauty of some of the high-end custom knives created by KKF vendors. But here's a, I guess, stupid question:

Considering that it would be insane to risk marring the beauty of these knives by using them for practical cutting tasks, what does it matter that these knives are (for example) "HRC 64" or "scary sharp" or any other "adjective" that would be used to describe working knives? I mean, these characteristics are pretty much irrelevant for show knives.

????? Which custom knives are you indicating will never be used? Sure, there may be some out there, but the nice thing about custom kitchen knives is they are functional art. Even $5k+ Kramers and $3k+ Bill Burkes get used, and sometimes abused!

WildBoar said:

????? Which custom knives are you indicating will never be used? Sure, there may be some out there, but the nice thing about custom kitchen knives is they are functional art. Even $5k+ Kramers and $3k+ Bill Burkes get used, and sometimes abused!

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Think of any knife with an extremely intricate damascus pattern and one-of-a-kind handle. Using such a knife as one's work knife and sharpening it as needed is just guaranteed to degrade it. Why not just have a custom-made work knife made, with all (or more) of the performance but none of the downside? And place the unblemished "art knife" where everyone can see and drool over it.

??? I still don't get it. Your OP indicated it wasn't worthwhile to get high hardness of scary sharp because the knives will never be used. I am simply saying they DO typically get used.

I have two 'one-of-a-kinds', and they both get used. And one of them was loaned to some kitchen pros to try out at work. They are knives, for Dog's sake.

And to go further with this, check out Chuckthebutcher's gallery. Sadly he passed away a few months back, but he amassed a collection of spectacular one-of-a-kind knives. They are now in a memorial display case, but he regularly used the knives in a pro kitchen. Same for others like Salty, marc4pt0 etc.

It's not insane to use them. Every time you take one of these knives out to use it, there's pleasure in handling such a beautiful piece of workmanship. First and foremost these knives are tools. If I want something to decorate the house, I'll get a painting or sculpture. My damascus knives with lovely handles make me happy when I cut things.

I think the guys that make the high end knives would be disappointed if they thought they were going to just sit in a drawer or safe somewhere. It doesn't hurt the knife to use it within reason (i.e. I wouldn't use a gyuto to chop bones or open cans etc.) I have a couple of nicer knives and use them regularly, a well designed, well executed knife isn't going to deteriorate by being used. My real worry would be in a pro-kitchen where I didn't know everyone really well or where there are folks just wandering through, and having it grow legs and become part of someone else's collection or some well meaning person putting it in the Hobart to "clean" it up...Luckily I don't have that worry since I'm not in the industry.

Hi Shira, that's a purely aesthetical reasoning. You can't assume everybody thinks like that. Some people put a lot of value in the function too. A beautiful samurai-like sword that is unable to cut because it was shaped with bad geometry won't have the same value as an authentic piece for me. Even if i never use it. With kitchen knives, it's even worse, because people use it. I imagine some people here get a kick out of their knives not only due to its looks, but also to its capability of cutting itself.

def stupid

A quote from "The Food Lab: Better Home Cooking through Science" by Lopez-Alt, J. Kenji:
"This is my knife. There are many others like it, but this one is mine. Your chef's knife should be an extension of your hand and so should feel completely natural. When I'm feeling down and I need a bit of physical support, I don't ask my wife to hold my hand. I don't rub my dog on his belly. Nope, I go to my knife and just hold it. We've spent a lot of time together. I know her curve (I just realized that my knife is female) and exactly how she fits into my hand and likes to be held, and in return, she is supportive, loyal, and wicked sharp."

In most of the custom knife world it isn't unheard of to put away pricey knives and just admire them as works of art but in the kitchen knife world all (or most all) knives get used as the tools they are regardless of price or fanciness. Kitchen knives have to perform first and foremost, all the rest is just extra.

Love this quote. Too bad Kenji didn't stick around KKF longer. We could have been a little more welcoming too.

Casaluz said:

A quote from "The Food Lab: Better Home Cooking through Science" by Lopez-Alt, J. Kenji:
"This is my knife. There are many others like it, but this one is mine. Your chef's knife should be an extension of your hand and so should feel completely natural. When I'm feeling down and I need a bit of physical support, I don't ask my wife to hold my hand. I don't rub my dog on his belly. Nope, I go to my knife and just hold it. We've spent a lot of time together. I know her curve (I just realized that my knife is female) and exactly how she fits into my hand and likes to be held, and in return, she is supportive, loyal, and wicked sharp."

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"working knife" is kind of a relative term... some people might do as much cutting in one week with their knife as others do in the first hour of an eight hour + shift. Some chefs have "working knife" sets but don't work the line anymore (so they can afford said knives :razz

If you can and want to buy a $2000 + custom kitchen knife, you are likely not too concerned about the money, thus would likely enjoy using it. If the money at that level is relatively meaningless, then you could choose to use it or just admire it as a work of art with out too much angst in either direction. People buying these knives are not scraping together pennies from the couch to afford them, and might not be too worried about using them hard in the kitchen. It depends on your circumstances if you see $2000 as expensive. For some it is a trivial amount...:2cents:

Lucretia said:

It's not insane to use them. Every time you take one of these knives out to use it, there's pleasure in handling such a beautiful piece of workmanship. First and foremost these knives are tools. If I want something to decorate the house, I'll get a painting or sculpture. My damascus knives with lovely handles make me happy when I cut things.

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I don't pretend to know how most people use the kind of knives I'm referring to. But I would hazard to guess that MOST people do NOT use these as their everyday work knives. Maybe they shave some arm-hairs with them, or cut paper, or a few tomatoes. Maybe they're infrequently used - and with great care - for something more substantial. But I respectfully suggest that these works of art are not "first and foremost" used as work knives, except by a small minority.

I have enough experience in various disciplines to know that one cannot optimize for each of several variables at the same time. In the realm of knife-making, that means that one can design to optimize beauty, or optimize the ability to attain the sharpest edge, or the ability to hold an edge for a long time, or hardness, or toughness, or handling. But one cannot optimize each of these factors simultaneously. So if you optimize beauty, you're probably losing more in most other areas than a knife designed purely for performance. Which means that if you want the ultimate working knife, you aren't going to use the most beautiful knife.

I believe that some KKF members use their most beautiful knife as an everyday working knife; but over time they'll end up with a less-than-most beautiful working knife that also isn't the best performing knife. Why would someone want that?

Hey, if you own enough of them and rotate usage, none of em get too worn down.

Also, it's not that difficult to regrind and refinish them once they have been used heavily, so it's no big deal if they get chipped or scratched or whatever.

Beauty if difference for everyone. And just because someone focuses on making something sharp, doesn't mean they can't also make it beautiful. One of the reason the higher end customs cost so much is because they take so long to make, because they are focusing on every single aspect throughout the process.

shira said:

show knives.

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No. If I'm paying for it, I'm beating the **** out of it.

The thing you're missing entirely here is that beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. You can't really "optimize" for it. For some scratches and other wear on a knife with a beautfiul damascus finish might actually enhance it. Kind of like how the makrs on an antique weapon enhance it. And then there's the faction who likes more rustique knifes to begin with. You seem kind of stuck in a mindset that every high end knife needs to have an etched damascus pattern or a mirror polish of sorts, but why couldn't it be kurouchi?

As others have said, kitchen knives are made to be used and you're not going to damage the blade through normal use; there's nothing that would happen as a result of normal wear and tear that a few minutes on the stones won't fix. The only issue is that if you truly love the knife and use it 40+ hours per week, you will eventually grind it down, but at that point you'd have had your money's worth.

The highly prized smiths are sought after due to the quality of their knives as tools. I'm drawn to a maker for the quality of their blades, and then if I like the damascus they offer, I might upgrade to it. I am not however drawn to a kitchen knife maker for their aesthetics if the performance of the blade is not world class, and I would assume the same is true for most.

I don't think kitchen knives are particularly collectable, if a maker is offering style over substance then they will do far better focusing on Bowie knives and the like.

If we were talking about nihonto then I would agree. A single cut will ruin the polish and art swords are often less durable than their more utilitarian brethren, with many being completely unsuitable for martial arts use.

The only real trade off with a high end kitchen knife is that a beautiful handle will always weigh more than a simple Ho handle and many users don't appreciate the extra weight.

shira said:

I have enough experience in various disciplines to know that one cannot optimize for each of several variables at the same time. In the realm of knife-making, that means that one can design to optimize beauty, or optimize the ability to attain the sharpest edge, or the ability to hold an edge for a long time, or hardness, or toughness, or handling. But one cannot optimize each of these factors simultaneously. So if you optimize beauty, you're probably losing more in most other areas than a knife designed purely for performance.

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No, not al all.

While it is true that it may not be possible to optimize "the ability to attain the sharpest edge, or the ability to hold an edge for a long time, or hardness, or toughness, or handling", these characteristics are properties of the material the blade is made from and the heat treatment of that material, but have little or nothing to do with the "beauty" of the knife. The knives made by Bill Burke, Devin Thomas, Michael Rader and other bladesmiths are proof of this.

Rick

Considering that it would be insane to risk marring the beauty of these knives by using them for practical cutting tasks

Don't you think that this opinion is limited to you and perhaps some others that think like you only?

Is it unrealistic that producers add artistic value to sell a superior product over a similar product cheaply produced?

Do you think that a great looking tool should not be used?

Considering that it would be insane to spend a lot of money on an excellent tool and not use it, why would you buy it?

We all make our value judgements based on our needs so you expressed yours and I almost expressed mine, be happy and enjoy life.

shira said:

I have enough experience in various disciplines to know that one cannot optimize for each of several variables at the same time. In the realm of knife-making, that means that one can design to optimize beauty, or optimize the ability to attain the sharpest edge, or the ability to hold an edge for a long time, or hardness, or toughness, or handling. But one cannot optimize each of these factors simultaneously. So if you optimize beauty, you're probably losing more in most other areas than a knife designed purely for performance. Which means that if you want the ultimate working knife, you aren't going to use the most beautiful knife.

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I respectfully disagree. I have a number of semi-custom Haburns (semi because they are far beyond the average but I didn't order them specifically - I just got lucky and managed to be on line the very second they were offered and pushed the "acquire" button). One is my best cutter, and yes, I know that is a very subjective opinion, for a gyuto and the other which is not his performance grind will hold up to any other knife out there. I use these knives every day, admittedly not professionally but as an avid home cook and they hold up just fine. I also have an HHH top notch slicer....it works a dream and I use it whenever i have a suitable task for it. It looks like the day it arrived despite slicing the thanksgiving turkey, the christmas prime rib and on and on. I really don't want a drawer queen and if the knife doesn't perform I really am not interested in it. If I get a knife that doesn't cut then I really don't want it. The pleasure of owning it is in the using it and experiencing the performance that the makers strive for....I really think they work hard to make their knives more than a display piece...I respect that.

The only 'optimisation' is in the choice of steel, due to whatever choices you have made for damascus etc.
As stated by many above, the grinding and heat treatment have nothing to do with the aesthetics, all to do with the steel.

I have a fairly expensive and totally unique knife, the handle costs more than most of my other knives, and I use it.
It's as pleasurable to use as to look at.

Casaluz said:

A quote from "The Food Lab: Better Home Cooking through Science" by Lopez-Alt, J. Kenji:
"This is my knife. There are many others like it, but this one is mine. Your chef's knife should be an extension of your hand and so should feel completely natural. When I'm feeling down and I need a bit of physical support, I don't ask my wife to hold my hand. I don't rub my dog on his belly. Nope, I go to my knife and just hold it. We've spent a lot of time together. I know her curve (I just realized that my knife is female) and exactly how she fits into my hand and likes to be held, and in return, she is supportive, loyal, and wicked sharp."

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[video=youtube;Hgd2F2QNfEE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgd2F2QNfEE[/video]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifleman's_Creed

If a knife is all show and no go it is useless. I have a few pricey knives that I don't use, but they would be great performers if I were to. I wouldn't value them if they were only capable of looking nice, you can buy cheap decorations for that.

Ok, i'll bite. The knifes ability to hold a razor sharp edge and the makers ability to control the heat treat process to achieve HRC 64+ ratings would add splendor to those who choose not to use the knives. Kind of a more fore power than you need kind of feeling.

My own experience, I was given my first knife, a wusthof sentoku grand prix. This was my introduction to the world of knives beyond cutco and to me, this wusthof was amazing. That was 11 years ago. In that time I cut the handle off and made my own Japanese style wenge handle and repeated honings took the edge right down to the granton dimples. I wore that knife out, used it up, which gave me the excuse to get something new, handmade, and far more expensive.

A knife that compromises cutting ability over anything wouldn't be worth a cent to this crowd

what's the first thing people ask no matter if it's a 100 dollar knife or a 1000 dollar custom with Mammoth tooth and diamond handle, "how does it cut?"

true dat!

AllanP said:

A knife that compromises cutting ability over anything wouldn't be worth a cent to this crowd

what's the first thing people ask no matter if it's a 100 dollar knife or a 1000 dollar custom with Mammoth tooth and diamond handle, "how does it cut?"

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I don't think it was a stupid question. I know of many knives that have never been used by their owners. I own a couple that have seen very little use. I take them out only when the house is empty and there are no distractions. As beautiful as they are , knowing that they perform well is part of why they were purchased. Most of my customs see regular use. They are all well cared for. I still get a little nervous every time I put a Damascus blade to stones. I personally would have no interest in any kitchen knife that didn't perform.

Having a few scratches and some patina is what I consider beauty...love breaking in a new blade.

Cheers

BTW, you can refinish any crazy damascus and make it look at least as good as new if you so desire.