Custom Knife Ordering

Since this topic seems to be of current interest in a different thread I thought that maybe it would be nice to move the discussion here. Hopefully this can be of assistance to those pursuing a custom for the first time.

What wait times do people generally find acceptable? (I like to work with folks that I can expect a product in under a year personally)

What type of deposit is reasonable? (My ideal is none to get on a list, partial before work begins. I've had problems here myself)

What type/frequency of communication is to be expected? (I just want to be aware of schedule shifts, problems, delivery dates,etc...but some folks obviously want more here than others)

How accurate have makers been in estimating time? (This has been all over the place in my experience)

When ordering, what are the expectations about how "custom" you should be able to make the knife (profile, geometry...)? For me, the reason I choose a maker is based on geometry so I like my input to be with regards to the profile)

These are some thoughts I try to go through--in addition to a good back and forth beforehand just to make sure we are both on the same page.

In terms of wait list I don't really mind if there is no deposir up front, for instance i am on a makers list that was 24+ months when i signed on and was happy with that since no money left hands and if I have to pull out when my name comes up (prior to work starting) that is ok.

In terms of deposit i would say cost of materials specifically purchased for the project plus maybe cost of steel stock sounds reasonable to me.

Accuracy depends on investment i guess. If i have dropped a 50% deposit then i want to know a pretty accurate date, i know stuff happens and accept that but i would want immediate communication if delays come up.

And i tend to agree with you anout design etc. I will pic a maker based on aesthetic and geometry so i will let them do there thing with maybe providing a little advice on thinness behind the edge wtc and some preferences on materials. But ultimately i see it as commissioning an artisit for a piece so some guidelines but let them do their thing. They have to be happy with what they are making to do their best work.

Thank you for opening the thread, I am more than curious about people's thoughts in this regard

For me I'd have to say the acceptable wait time depends on the maker and what techniques are needed to make the knife. It I want something no one else can really replicate aesthetically (i.e., a HHH, DT or Catchside damascus, or a Cris Anderson honyaki), then a one-year wait is okay. For a Burke or Kramer, 2+ years. A Rader - 1-2 years. For makers who mainly do stock removal, 6 months is more realistic to me, as the knife-making process is a bit easier and you don't have to wait for them to have other similar orders in the pipeline to make a batch of that fancy damscus pattern, etc. As far as deposits go, I think it is fair to ask for 20-35% once your number is called, but there should not be a payment just to get on a wait list. And always best to confirm if final pricing will be based on prices the day you get on the list, the day your name is called or the day your knife is finished (I think the middle one is most typical).

I've only purchased one custom knife and it was with Dave Martell.

No deposit required to be on the wait list. Wait time was surprisingly fast, like 2 months from wait list to finished product but I think I just lucked out, right place right time.

Didn't pay Dave til the knife was ready. His explanation was even if I didn't like the knife/ changes my mind, he could easily sell it so no lost to him.

Probably got spoiled by the positive experience but I can't imagine putting down a deposit and waiting years for a knife to be finished

For custom made items, not just knives, I won't pay just for a spot at the end of the line. Once work starts on my project I have no problem giving a deposit. I'm most comfortable with 20%. Depending on how comfortable I am with who I'm dealing with I may go higher but not by a large amount.

The length of the wait all depends on the product. I would rather know up front and walk away then think I'm going to be getting something in 6 months and it turns into 2 years.

General design is on the maker. I'm going to them because I like what they do or have done. I'm not most creative so I depend on them and their knowledge.

I understand why makers ask for a down payment. They are trying to run a business and the cost of materials aren't cheap. If the customer just flakes out it, it isn't right for the maker to eat the cost.

I get asking for something once work has started but not just to wait in line.

I've ordered two knives. One was a stock removal the other a hand forged. I wasn't asked for any deposit on the first one which took slightly more than a year to get. The other one I put down a 50% deposit and waited and waited and waited. Now with all this waiting nothing physically had taken place towards producing my knife. Finally, I got tired of waiting and asked for my deposit back. I got back a portion of it and I chalked it up to experience. I think one of the issues that some makers have is they're running on a shoestring. They end up using new deposits to purchase materials for orders placed by other people months if not longer in the past, robbing Peter to pay Paul. They have no cash reserves so if they have some major equipment failure they end up using deposited monies to bail themselves out to replace or repair the equipment. Then they have to make some knives to put out for sale to generate some cash which in turn pushes your order back even further.

I personally would never place another order for a custom or even a semi-custom knife again. After picking up one of DT's mystery steel knives that he occasionally offered, which I think is as good as a knife can get, waiting for years for something that will not perform any better if even as good is something I'm not willing to do.

What wait times do people generally find acceptable? (I like to work with folks that I can expect a product in under a year personally)

Click to expand...

With adequate communication, I think 1 year is reasonable. When communication is limited, 4-6 months is about what I tolerate before forming negative opinions.

What type of deposit is reasonable? (My ideal is none to get on a list, partial before work begins. I've had problems here myself)

Click to expand...

A deposit from a known unreliable maker is a dealbreaker for me, because some of them fail to refund when the fault is their own (Marc's recent thread reminded me of this). Otherwise, I'm ambivalent about deposits. Both those who have asked for deposits and those who have not have been highly variable in dependability and timeliness. Mareko Maumasi asked me for a 30% deposit for his wait list with no clear timing, but when I pestered him, he gave me a ballpark estimate. I guess it's fine if he doesn't flake.

What type/frequency of communication is to be expected? (I just want to be aware of schedule shifts, problems, delivery dates,etc...but some folks obviously want more here than others)

Click to expand...

It depends on how bespoke the knife is. If it's just a commissioned general piece with limited input, an occasional status update would be nice...or notification of troubles. If it's more involved, I'd like more regular communication. I like it when makers are honest about how much or how little vision they have for a given project, so we can stimulate or guide the project in a direction that is satisfying for everyone.

How accurate have makers been in estimating time? (This has been all over the place in my experience)

Click to expand...

Generally...this is a major problem.

When ordering, what are the expectations about how "custom" you should be able to make the knife (profile, geometry...)? For me, the reason I choose a maker is based on geometry so I like my input to be with regards to the profile)

Click to expand...

Depends on maker. If I'm ordering, either I have confidence in the maker's choices, or I am confident that the maker understands and can work toward my goals. The more "experimental" the maker is being, the more I'd like to have some input.

These are some thoughts I try to go through--in addition to a good back and forth beforehand just to make sure we are both on the same page.

Click to expand...

I have shifted my tolerance a bit...I used to imagine the knife would justify unstable and excessive wait times. So far, it never has. Instead, now I can tolerate a wait if I otherwise have a good relationship with the maker and have some regular communication in the interim. This tends to be more associated with personality, but unfortunately there'll still be times where I misjudge.

Miho said:

I've only purchased one custom knife and it was with Dave Martell.

No deposit required to be on the wait list. Wait time was surprisingly fast, like 2 months from wait list to finished product but I think I just lucked out, right place right time.

Didn't pay Dave til the knife was ready. His explanation was even if I didn't like the knife/ changes my mind, he could easily sell it so no lost to him.

Probably got spoiled by the positive experience but I can't imagine putting down a deposit and waiting years for a knife to be finished

Click to expand...

+1. I go back a long way with Dave. I believe that he installed one of the first of Stefan Keller's handles for me. Since then I've had a bunch of projects with him. Some had remarkably fast turn around times, a few had long waits. I never had a bad experience because I accepted that I wasn't dealing with a factory. There was one human being doing 100% of the work, and the workflow was governed by circumstances beyond my control. I'd say that's the way it is with most artisan makers. Of course, in the case of pre-payment, people will differ in defining what is an acceptable wait time or payment policy...rightfully so; it's their money on the line. I would be wary of a maker who claimed an unrealistic turn around time on a full custom. There's an old saying: "you can have it right or you can have it now; which do you want?"
Strangely, in my limited experience with several makers, almost invariably the knives that I had to pre-pay or put deposits on took way longer to receive.

If the maker is taking no deposit or is taking a token amount, I think that ANY waiting time is reasonable, I'd rather be on Kramer's list for 15 years than never get on the list! I've had this happen a lot of times where I contact a maker and find that their books are closed, and I invariably miss the window when they reopen. I'd much rather get on the list now, forget all about it, and then a decade down the line get a message that my name has come up should I still wish to go ahead.

This changes if the buyer has paid a significant deposit, in which case the maker has an obligation to try and stay to the agreed on timescale and keep the buyer updated if the schedule slips significantly and inform him why. The buyer should still not impose deadlines on the maker, but if the maker is having health problems or is having problems with his forge, etc, he should keep the customer informed. If you are not prepared for delays though and know that it would irritate you if your knife slipped to a year behind schedule due to unforeseen problems on the maker's part then you should probably stick to ready made knives.

I also think that as this type of contract is generally entered into in an informal manner, there are rarely (if ever) terms and conditions included. That way it would be there in writing what the outcome would be if certain things happened. I think that there are a lot of assumptions involved and that if these are not met then people tend to feel "ripped-off". At least with terms of sale in place people would be able to read through and see what their recourse would be, and if they're not happy, they could negotiate or decide that they can't work with those terms.

I think that there is sometimes a lack of foresight on both sides. I've never thought to ask, "what happens if there's an over-grind" or "what happens if the glue on the handle gives out and the scales fall off", etc. I've always researched the maker's work and avoided those with common problems, I've never expected that I would be at liberty to return a blade if there was a flaw, as I tend to feel that I should have not bought the knife.

I came to this forum in the first instance as I had been drawn to Takeda and Moritaka. I researched them and found that they commonly had grind issues, so I contacted the vendor and asked what his policy was. The response basically explained that there were no issues with either and that they were effectively sold caveat emptor. On account of this I never bought either knife.

I apologise for the length of this post and how off topic I've wandered, but I think that the most important thing is to ask these difficult questions. I too tend to get too excited about a new knife to ever consider what would happen if things went wrong, but clear terms and conditions could make things a lot simpler and would be beneficial to both sides. As expressed by Chris Anderson and Mert Tansu recently, slight variations can make a big difference to the saleability of a knife. I'd never considered this before, but maybe if it was made clear from the outset that a "standard profile" knife could be returned for a refund (as the maker could easily resell it immediately) whereas a more customised knife was non-returnable (as it would not have the same broad appeal), maybe customers would be able to make better informed choices and avoid disputes. We're all friends here and when things do break down, it's never personal but is basically just a clash of differing expectations.

Nice post mas4t0!
Enjoyed it reading this one!!!

I would also hasten to add that I have no qualms taking advantage of a warranty which is explicitly given, it's just that I expect a maker to be offering their work on a caveat emptor basis if a warranty is not mentioned.

In my experience, ordering a custom through Koki was a good experience and highlights that a hands off approach can work well too, so long as the deposit is small. I placed the order and paid a $50 deposit, I was told that he didn't know when the knife would be ready. Then about 2 years later I got an e-mail telling me that the knife would be ready at the end of the month and that he'd post it out as soon as the balance was paid.

There was virtually no interaction, Koki always responds immediately but I didn't see a reason to hassle him and I knew that he'd let me know when there was an update. The $50 deposit was just enough to offer some commitment, but was not anywhere near the point that I would ever have been concerned about it.

preizzo said:

Nice post mas4t0!
Enjoyed it reading this one!!!

Click to expand...

Thanks!

I have a completely random and unrelated question for you preizzo if you would indulge me, I ask because I just noticed you're in Sweden and it's something which I've wondered since I was a child.

In England, a rutabaga is called a Swede, but what do you guys in Sweden call them?

Mhhh intresing question.!!
Funny but I can't answer you because I am Italian, just living here since 2012 so I have no clue, but tonight I will ask my wife, she is swede, and I will answer you back.
BTW in Italy we call them "figli di cugini" that means cousin's sons.
It s a bit to strong but I believe came from the old aristocratic world, since at that time the rich people used to get married inside the family members 😄
To keep the aristocratic blood

preizzo said:

BTW in Italy we call them "figli di cugini" that means cousin's sons.
It s a bit to strong but I believe came from the old aristocratic world, since at that time the rich people used to get married inside the family members 😄
To keep the aristocratic blood

Click to expand...

That's awesome, thank you for sharing! Whatever the Swedish name is, it can't top that!

I never thought about it before, but there is a particularly prominent member of the British aristocracy who somewhat resembles a rutabaga. :crazy:

I signed up for the bloodroots blades custom list and Katy got back to me in a day or so, very nice! The wait was 40 months and they needed a 100 deposit to put me on the list. I declined to let someone hold my money for over three years, even if it's "only" 100 dollars. I would not mind if they wanted a deposit once discussions started about the knife. Or maybe if that 100 dollars locked you in at todays prices I wouldn't mind. So...I will not be getting a custom BB.

Regarding wait time, it is what it is. I don't care as long as the quoted time is accurate, this is especially true if the maker is a MS.

I wouldn't even tolerate 3 months let alone a year. And a wait list? Nah. If I were though I think once a knife is started paying half up front is reasonable for both sides as long as it gets finished in timely manner. But there isn't anything out there I would even remotely be interested in enough to consider paying more than a ready made one. I would only get a custom from a maker that already sells a good volume of ready made ones, that way I know there wouldn't be any crazy issues.

Bill13 said:

I signed up for the bloodroots blades custom list and Katy got back to me in a day or so, very nice! The wait was 40 months and they needed a 100 deposit to put me on the list. I declined to let someone hold my money for over three years, even if it's "only" 100 dollars. I would not mind if they wanted a deposit once discussions started about the knife. Or maybe if that 100 dollars locked you in at todays prices I wouldn't mind. So...I will not be getting a custom BB.

Regarding wait time, it is what it is. I don't care as long as the quoted time is accurate, this is especially true if the maker is a MS.

Click to expand...

I got into the waiting list 2 weeks ago, and I have 41 months to wait, BUT :
The discussion about the knife starts straight away, I'm currently emailing back and forth with David, and trust me the emails are LONG! I'm learning a lot about their grinds, it's really fascinating. I can't believe those guys have the time to write to each customer that much, make custom blades and make some to sell in their newsletter!!!
Also, they'll give you a quote once the discussion has come to an agreement about the design, so you won't pay the prices they'll bill in 3 years or more, as you have the price now
I hope having read that you'll contact Katy again, I think it's worth it, even though the waiting time is really long. (To me it's not a problem, it's actually the solution I found not to buy more knife, I just have to save money for those ones now )

--
HaT

My TL/DR answer: it depends.

Most of my custom experience is with handles, but at any rate I generally don't mind paying upfront, because it makes me ensure I do not spend the money elsewhere on other projects. Given the crap Canadian dollar, had I not prepaid for some projects back in the summer, I can guarantee I wouldn't be doing them now. Communication can vary; I'm flooded with emails at work, so don't need 24/7 updates, but appreciate milestones or unforeseen events that will result in delays. What I can't stand and have little to no room for is being given the runaround. So far I'm happy with my custom experience.

EDIT - just realized it's my one year KKF anniversary :cool2:

tjangula said:

EDIT - just realized it's my one year KKF anniversary :cool2:

Click to expand...

Happy anniversary buddy!

Which knife are you getting to celebrate?

MAS4T0 said:

Happy anniversary buddy!

Which knife are you getting to celebrate?

Click to expand...

I'll have to see how my cash flow is looking once I wrap up my current projects and have my renovations taken care of and mortgage renewed. 2015 was a fairly spendy year so I am trying not to commit to anything that wasn't discussed in 2015 (that's my New Year's resolution, not sure how long it can last lol)