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Thread: UK/European Passaround!

  1. #111
    Senior Member Benuser's Avatar
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    I haven't reviewed it yet. I don't care about the small handle, as I pinch grip quite forward if I may say so. So I don't care. Balance is just a bit forward, and weight is to be compared to the best European blades I know, 210 grams I guess.
    I like the distal taper I miss with most Japanese knives. A good convexity behind, and a slim tip, great for forward slicing and "guillotine and glide". The almost flat spot is just continuous, as it should.
    I haven't sharpened it myself and sent it back because of its slight tip damage. If I had to sharpen it I would certainly apply some asymmetry, but I always do.

  2. #112
    Senior Member Benuser's Avatar
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    I liked the convexity on the back, and the thinness in front,which contribute highly to the working of the distal taper. Have seen the same with Haburn, and it makes a lot of sense when you practice a forward motion and use the back of the blade for rougher tasks. Just as with the good old French or Sheffields.

  3. #113
    Senior Member DamageInc's Avatar
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    Knife has just been shipped. I'm going to PM the tracking info to Matteo.
    Don't drink out of ornamental ponds in Tiergarten. You will get sick.

  4. #114
    Senior Member preizzo's Avatar
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    Hi Sebastián
    Got the knife today.
    I will used for the next week and then I will send back to Dan.
    Still have to open the package but I guess it will be all right.
    I will post more info tonight after work 😀

  5. #115
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    Here I am finally with (not only) my thoughts about Dan’s gyuto, I am the last one who didn’t post them yet, so I am going to do it now…

    There were finally 2 people involved here in Prague, me and my friend who works as a pro chef (I asked Dan if I could lend him the knife for a couple of days and he agreed kindly) and has a quite long experience with J-knives. As I mentioned earlier, he promised to publish a thorough review on the knife on a Czech knife forum, but didn’t have time to complete it so far, so I will post only his main thoughts…and eventually add some details later on…Finally, he used the knife for 6 days and I for about 3…
    My English is too bad to write any long romans and a lot has already been written about the knife within the previous reviews, so I will summarize my impressions briefly:

    What I liked: the (forward) balance of the knife and the nice convexity of the grind, causing a surprisingly good food release, at least for such a thin blade, the knife cuts nicely and basically like a laser, but still feels solid in hand when cutting harder ingredients due to the quite robust and stiff back part...

    What I didn’t like: not surprisingly, the too small handle, but as Dan is well aware of this and it has already been mentioned by the other participants, it doesn’t make much sense to amplify this issue...But what the other people didn’t mention to be a problem, as far as I can remember, is the extremely thin tip. I generally like knives having pronounced distal taper and thin tips (my mainly used knife is an Itinomonn kurouchi nashiji gyuto which has exactly such features, see for instance photo here: http://rhamphorhynchus.rajce.idnes.c.../#DSCN5531.jpg), but this was too much even for me. For my liking the tip was really too thin (a photo of the distal taper is available here: http://rhamphorhynchus.rajce.idnes.c...o#DSCN4394.jpg – there are also a few other photos of the knife in the same album) and, in particular, on the last few centimeters also quite flexile what made it somewhat uncomfortable to use, at least for me...Partly this was also due to the fact that I am used to smaller knives, but anyway...The thinness itself wouldn’t be a problem, if the tip would be as stiff as it is for instance in Carter knives (few months ago Matus kindly lend me his Carter funayuki for a few weeks and it was the stiffest knife I have ever hold), but the thinness combined with the flexibility of the last few cm of the blade was a problem for me...

    Interestingly, the impressions of my friend about the tip about the tip were basically the same as mine...the really thin part is a bit too long and in particular somewhat flexile…In his case it has certainly nothing to do with the length of the knives he is used to (he uses only 240’s), but rather with their geometry, his current go to gyutos are Konosuke Fujiyama 240 mm Blue #2 gyuto and a 240 mm White #2 gyuto from Yoshikazu Ikeda, both very stiff knives with rather thick spine and not much pronounced distal taper, particularly the Kono (but the tip in the Ikeda is still ground very thinly and is very useful)…It is quite likely that I (as a homecook) could get used to such a thin tip much rather then he as a pro who uses his knives really hard and for many hours per day…

    And as I just mentioned the hard use of the knife a in a pro kitchen, I will also mention the second main point which I have talked with my friend about…and this is the edge retention…I, of course, didn’t have any opportunity to assess it competently, but in my friend‘s opinion it was quite poor…Again, should we make a direct comparison with the knives he currently uses (Kono Fuji Blue #2, Ikeda) and that both have a really good edge retention, it wouldn’t be a big surprise that Dan’s gyuto would be the loser, but he mentioned that even as compared with the edge retention of a Konosuke HD gyuto (which he sold just due to its poor edge retention), it hold the edge for a distinctly shorter time…There were hardly any comments regarding the edge retention within the European passaround (I didn‘t read the thread regarding the UK one yet) as all the participants were homecooks, only DamageInc mentioned that the edge retention seemed to be better if sharpened only up to 4k grit, not higher…So I asked my friend to which grit he sharpened the knife and he answered that once he finished it on 8k and once on 5k – with no significant difference…So his conclusion about the edge retention might partly be related to the relatively high grit he used for finishing, on the other, hand, according to my (although limited) knowledge, finishing on the 6k grit works still well for most higher-end blades…But anyway, I believe that just this comment on edge retention might be potentially interesting and valuable for Dan, I am curious what preizzo (as a second pro among the participants) will report on this topic…

    Should I make a short conclusion, the knife is a nice cutter which is due to its generall thinness distinctly more pleasant to use and performs better than all the traditional German knives like Wüsthof, Zwilling, etc. Should I hypothetically order a knife from Dan, I would ask for a bigger handle and particularly for a slightly more robust geometry with a less thin and flexile tip. For me a potential not top notch edge retention wouldn’t be an issue, for a pro cook most likely yes, but further comments from pros are needed regarding this topic…

    Anyway, thanks to Dan for the opportunity to try the knife and sorry for my quite late comments!

    Jan

  6. #116
    Dan P.'s Avatar
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    Thanks for your review Krakorak! Interesting points and good feedback.
    The main issue being edge retention, let me address that;
    If you look at the composition of the steel of the pass around knife and that of White 2, they are actually not wildly dissimilar. The steel I used is, on paper, the "better" steel. So why the difference in edge retention? I expect it is due to a difference in tempering temperature, i.e.hardness, mine being at around 61 HRc. With very little by way of carbide forming alloys, it follows that hardness is the key to top performance in this type of very plain steel. Now, 61 HRc is not soft, and for home use I, personally, have found it very adequate. The edge retention was a concern of mine, though, as certain other steels I use need sharpening during home use perhaps once a month or less. The 2210 (the pass around knife) really functions best being sharpened once a week. But then, it is very easy to sharpen too!
    So, perhaps a lower tempering temp is the way forward with this steel.

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan P. View Post
    Thanks for your review Krakorak! Interesting points and good feedback.
    The main issue being edge retention, let me address that;
    If you look at the composition of the steel of the pass around knife and that of White 2, they are actually not wildly dissimilar. The steel I used is, on paper, the "better" steel. So why the difference in edge retention? I expect it is due to a difference in tempering temperature, i.e.hardness, mine being at around 61 HRc. With very little by way of carbide forming alloys, it follows that hardness is the key to top performance in this type of very plain steel. Now, 61 HRc is not soft, and for home use I, personally, have found it very adequate. The edge retention was a concern of mine, though, as certain other steels I use need sharpening during home use perhaps once a month or less. The 2210 (the pass around knife) really functions best being sharpened once a week. But then, it is very easy to sharpen too!
    So, perhaps a lower tempering temp is the way forward with this steel.
    I am definitely no metallurgy expert, but your post reminds me on a frequently used sentence, here on KKF - that its much less about the steel and its composition, but much rather about the heat treatment:-)..And if one reads what for instance the guys from Bernalcutlery or Sam from Buttermilksupply wrote about the heat treatment of White 2 steel from Ikeda-san (with his more than 40 years of experience), its definitely no shame to be still slightly behind:-)...What I forgot to mention within my previous post was that we both had the same feeling, namely that there is a lot of hidden potential in your work, the end of one of the SMS my friend wrote me was "..its a well-made knife, after he will iron out some details, he will be really good!"...So keep "playing" with the steels and I am sure that the results will soon be even better than they are now:-)!

  8. #118
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    And as regards my review - you are welcome, I tried to do my best, although I am still just a moderately knowledgeable amateur...

  9. #119
    Dan P.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakorak View Post
    I am definitely no metallurgy expert, but your post reminds me on a frequently used sentence, here on KKF - that its much less about the steel and its composition, but much rather about the heat treatment:-)..And if one reads what for instance the guys from Bernalcutlery or Sam from Buttermilksupply wrote about the heat treatment of White 2 steel from Ikeda-san (with his more than 40 years of experience), its definitely no shame to be still slightly behind:-)...What I forgot to mention within my previous post was that we both had the same feeling, namely that there is a lot of hidden potential in your work, the end of one of the SMS my friend wrote me was "..its a well-made knife, after he will iron out some details, he will be really good!"...So keep "playing" with the steels and I am sure that the results will soon be even better than they are now:-)!
    Although "critical" assessment can hurt one's pride a little, it is extremely important if one wants to develop at all as a maker, the hardness of this steel being a case in point. So thanks to you and all the valuable feedback and reviews from the participants, and I look forward to further comments from those who have yet to chime in (when they are ready!).

  10. #120
    Senior Member Benuser's Avatar
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    61 Hrc is a fair value I wouldn't want to get altered. Actual edge retention will greatly depend on the sharpening and daily maintenance. I could imagine someone in a pro environment to add a single sided micro-bevel à la Jon Broida which will add a lot of retention without compromising performance in any noticeable way.

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