another "help me find..." with a completed questionnaire.

LOCATION
What country are you in? UK

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)? Gyuto

Are you right or left handed? Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle? A Wa Japanese handle

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimetres)? 210

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no) No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? £250 all in. I understand that a foreign vendor might have additional fees, and would like to keep the entire affair below £250.

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment? Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.) I slice a lot of proteins and a fair amount of veggies.

What knife, if any, are you replacing? Shun Classic 8” Chef knife

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.) Pinch (almost exclusively)

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.) Primarily rock and pushcut

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.) I have recently purchased a Masakage Koishi Santoku and seem to be enjoying the carbon experience. I wouldn’t mind another steel, but the majority of my other sharps (camping knives, straight razors) are carbon, and I like the way they respond to my hones. I also like the hammered Koishi finish, and all Karouchis generally, but the knife should be beautiful. My sense is that the performance is more about my skills on the cutting board and the whetstone and less about the which steel is used.

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)? See above, but I enjoy a unique finish and am equally drawn to a hammered Karachi and a deep pattern. I am especially hoping that I can find a highly polished bevel. Shiny is good!

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)? I like the Wa handles, a and medium to light weight.

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)? Smoother rock cutting, certainly, easy to sharpen is always a plus.

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)? Not that critical; I tend to strop regularly and have no fear of whetstones.

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.) I have a large edge-cut block

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.) Yes: and have a nice selection. My favourite progression for all my sharps (razors, camping knives, etc) is Naniwa SS 1000, Belgian Blue, Coticule, and when I’m feeling a bit crazy I finish on a Charnley Forest. I always have a pasted strop around with 1 micron paste. I enjoy stooping, and don’t mind if the strop is responsible for a micro-bevel.

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.) I always am

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

I’ve looked at several vendors (JCK, Maksim, CuttingEdge in the UK and have considered Knives & Stones and CKTG) and have found a few 210 Gyutos, but I’m concerned about overseas drama and prices and have found the the Itinomonns, Masakages, Kurosakis, Mizunos and Sukenaris are either out of stock or, if in stock, is not quite what I’m looking for. Examples of this are the Masakage Yuki and the Itinomonn and the Kurosaki R2. The Yuki can be found, but once the overseers charges are factored in, I’m paying the same as I would spend on a knife that I want much more. I’m really leaning toward the Kurosake or another Masakage Koishi… or several others. Damn this is a crazy decision. I continue to see knives I want, at the price I want, but they are either out of stock or filled with what I suspect is overseas drama. Perhaps I’m simply too concerned with the unknown costs and customs and paperwork and delivery times of ordering from outside the EU.

Thank you all very much!

I'm helping a friend buy her first "good" knife and the Itinomonn semi-stainless is on the (very) short list. Maksim shows the 210 and 240 in stock.

Have you used a 210mm before?

I only ask because with a Wa-handle you lose some length, as they're measured from the handle, so it would probably be more like 200mm along the edge. If it wouldn't take it over budget and there isn't any particular reason for the choice of 210mm, I would strongly suggest a 240mm which in many cases will run around 225mm along the edge and will generally be a much more capable blade on account of those extra few millimetres.

MAS4T0 said:

Have you used a 210mm before?

I only ask because with a Wa-handle you lose some length, as they're measured from the handle, so it would probably be more like 200mm along the edge. If it wouldn't take it over budget and there isn't any particular reason for the choice of 210mm, I would strongly suggest a 240mm which in many cases will run around 225mm along the edge and will generally be a much more capable blade on account of those extra few millimetres.

Click to expand...

That's interesting....

I have two gyutos, Shun Classics in 8" and 10". I can't say that I ver enjoyed the 10". It just seemed too long. My elbow was always tucked further back when I was cutting. I've always liked the 8, and use it all the time. It measures 205mm from the heal to the tip. I've only wished for a longer blade a few times, but not enough to warrant purchasing one.

daveb said:

I'm helping a friend buy her first "good" knife and the Itinomonn semi-stainless is on the (very) short list. Maksim shows the 210 and 240 in stock.

Click to expand...

I did see that, but I didn't know what the "stain-less" actually was, and the knife is really plain, too plain to make me buy it right now. It's not all about performance. My sense is that all the knives I've mentioned or are considering will perform more-or-less the same and be more-or-less as sharp as one another, so the way it looks plays a larger role than perhaps it should.

Why is it on your very short list?

What about:
Kurouchi in 210 http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=92955
or
A 210 gyuto, Aogami Super Nickel Damascus.http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/SukenariSpecials.html#SukenariSpecials

MAS4T0 said:

Have you used a 210mm before?

I only ask because with a Wa-handle you lose some length, as they're measured from the handle, so it would probably be more like 200mm along the edge. If it wouldn't take it over budget and there isn't any particular reason for the choice of 210mm, I would strongly suggest a 240mm which in many cases will run around 225mm along the edge and will generally be a much more capable blade on account of those extra few millimetres.

Click to expand...

As I understand it, having a wa handle has nothing to do with how to measure blade length. The blade length is measured from heel to tip. However, if the tang shows machi, the length is measured from handle to tip (more or less). Of course, there are some exceptions to this rule.

For info on machi, see http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/jbladeant.shtml

I believe Sakai knives are usually measured as if a machi shows (they run short).

MAS4T0 said:

Have you used a 210mm before?

I only ask because with a Wa-handle you lose some length, as they're measured from the handle, so it would probably be more like 200mm along the edge. If it wouldn't take it over budget and there isn't any particular reason for the choice of 210mm, I would strongly suggest a 240mm which in many cases will run around 225mm along the edge and will generally be a much more capable blade on account of those extra few millimetres.

Click to expand...

I see this 240mm Gyuto rec so often, and 210mm gently disparaged. But other factors do come into play. I am short, with short arms and look fwd to selling off my 240mm's when post count permits as they are just too long for me to enjoy using (home cook). My counter space is limited so my cutting board not large and this also comes into play. A 210mm just feels like a much more natural extension of my hand/arm and much more enjoyable to use.
Edit to add: 210mm also seems to have much less upsweep of the edge at the tip, which I very much prefer.

Curmudgeon said:

That's interesting....

I have two gyutos, Shun Classics in 8" and 10". I can't say that I ver enjoyed the 10". It just seemed too long. My elbow was always tucked further back when I was cutting. I've always liked the 8, and use it all the time. It measures 205mm from the heal to the tip. I've only wished for a longer blade a few times, but not enough to warrant purchasing one.

Click to expand...

I agree that 10" can be too long, for me 9" is the sweet spot.

I find with a 9" (or longer) knife, there are 3 distinct zones of the blade - the heel, the mid-section and the tip, and I tend to use each section for different tasks (this is especially true when there is distal taper). In anything shorter than 9" I find that there isn't sufficient length for separation of these zones and I've never found anything shorter to be as versatile.

limpet said:

As I understand it, having a wa handle has nothing to do with how to measure blade length. The blade length is measured from heel to tip. However, if the tang shows machi, the length is measured from handle to tip (more or less). Of course, there are some exceptions to this rule.

For info on machi, see http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/jbladeant.shtml

Click to expand...

You are of course correct, but I have had a number of Wa-handled knives (without machi) - the majority of which were from Sakai - which were measured as though there was a machi showing. I guess my point was to confirm that the knife you're looking at is actually 210mm and not shorter.

Edit: chinacats already cleared this up.

Nomo4me said:

I see this 240mm Gyuto rec so often, and 210mm gently disparaged. But other factors do come into play. I am short, with short arms and look fwd to selling off my 240mm's when post count permits as they are just too long for me to enjoy using (home cook). My counter space is limited so my cutting board not large and this also comes into play. A 210mm just feels like a much more natural extension of my hand/arm and much more enjoyable to use.

Click to expand...

I guess it depends how you use it. It's maybe just that I'm not skilled enough to get as much out of a 210 as others do, I personally prefer to use a petty if I'm going below 225mm as I find that it handles most things better. I'm not sure how small your board is, but I often use a 255mm (10") gyuto on a 10" x 15" board and have no issues. I also feel that the size of the produce is generally more important that the size of the user.

I'm not meaning to disparage it at all, if you are able to get as much out of a 210mm as I can out of a longer knife, then more power to you.

MAS4T0 said:

I guess it depends how you use it. It's maybe just that I'm not skilled enough to get as much out of a 210 as others do, I personally prefer to use a petty if I'm going below 225mm as I find that it handles most things better. I'm not sure how small your board is, but I often use a 255mm (10") gyuto on a 10" x 15" board and have no issues. I also feel that the size of the produce is generally more important that the size of the user.

I'm not meaning to disparage it at all, if you are able to get as much out of a 210mm as I can out of a longer knife, then more power to you.

Click to expand...

Could be that our requirements differ. My board is 2" thick about 19" diameter and at a height that is a bit above ideal for proper ergonomics. The raised tip of my 240mm gyutos means I have to raise my arm higher than desired for certain, common tasks. The flatter profile of the 210 solves this counter/board height issue. It's all the blade I need.
I cook for 2, and not as often/intensively as I'd like. Mostly veg, though I did enjoy whacking away at a frozen block of squid with my $8 stainless Chinese cleaver last night. Should have thawed more before meal prep

Curmudgeon said:

Why is it (Itnomonnon Semi-stainless) on your very short list?

Click to expand...

Lot of bang for the buck. As noted, it's a "no frills" knife but as a line cook she is shopping for pure utility. Different evaluation criteria than you have, both are valid.

daveb said:

Lot of bang for the buck. As noted, it's a "no frills" knife but as a line cook she is shopping for pure utility. Different evaluation criteria than you have, both are valid.

Click to expand...

From what I've learned about Japanese knives over the last month, I tend to agree with you: we have a different requirements and that Itinomonn represents tremendous value. I've certainly considered it. More than a few times. At the moment I'm strongly considering a Masakage or Kurosaki in 210, or a 240 if it's short If pure value was the only criteria I would have to consider the Eden knives as well. They seem to be rebranded blades from the same folks I'm considering, but perhaps without the final fit and finish I'm expecting from the true versions. I might pick one up as a beater or a goofy additional partially-needed knife one day. How bizarre is that?

Someone made a comment earlier about the three parts of the blade he uses and the hight of his cutting board and the resulting impact on rocking hight. As someone neither short or tall at 5'8" I can can certainly see his point and wholeheartedly agree with him: a 9" gyuoto might be perfect, and I can do most everything with an 8". I cook for two people and have no need to move quickly through bowls of veggies. I don't really want to move that quickly either. I prefer to work at a reasonable pace and enjoy playing with my kitchen tools. Why speed through it without the time to enjoy it?