A newbie's dilemma - Tojiro or CarboNext?

Hi folks !

I am a newbie and I am looking for a quality Chef knife that is not too difficult to start sharpening (not prone to chipping) and at the same time is constrained in a budget.

So far, and based on recommendation on the forum or personally from other members (many thanks to all of em), I shortlisted two knives:
Tojiro DP Gyuto 210mm
JCK CarboNext Gyuto 210mm

Each one has pros and cons to me. I love the price of the Tojiro (55EUR shipping included on my “local” amazon), but it is said to be prone to chipping and not ideal for beginners with poor honing technique. The Carbonext is said to sharpen more easily and to be of excellent value, but at 100EUR, I might not yet be ready for that kind of price.

Is there any alternative that you can think of that can reconcile these two options in terms of price and noob-friendlyness?

Some members advised me to go for Carbon steel (easier to sharpen), any recommendation for that below 100$ ? (the lower the better without compromising steel quality too much – by quality I mean durability, I am not yet a maniac in terms of achievable sharpness) Or should I not be too worried and start with the Tojiro anyway?

Many thanks in advance to all !

Fujiwara FKM or FKH (Carbon)

Suisin Carbon (Just below $100)

Tadafusa Nashiji Wa 210 can sometimes be found for around - $85

I think Tojiro DP is fine for beginner (and is easy on the wallet). Yes VG-10 can chip, but I wouldn't say it's very easy to chip. Even softer knives will be damaged if you abuse them, they are just more likely to deform instead of chip.

richard said:

I think Tojiro DP is fine for beginner (and is easy on the wallet). Yes VG-10 can chip, but I wouldn't say it's very easy to chip. Even softer knives will be damaged if you abuse them, they are just more likely to deform instead of chip.

Click to expand...

Thanks, that way I might still indeed go easy on my wallet

easy13 said:

Fujiwara FKM or FKH (Carbon)

Suisin Carbon (Just below $100)

Tadafusa Nashiji Wa 210 can sometimes be found for around - $85

Click to expand...

Fujiwara looks like good value, but Tadafusa is very tempting with its stunning finish (waw).

Thanks for all these advises, I guess I'll have to do some homework

Sharpening VG-10 is no fun at all, and deburring will require three grits.

If I were you, I'd get either semi-stainless (like Carbonext) or stainless cladded carbon. Fujiwara may be in your price range, but it's fully carbon and very reactive. You should be prepared to care for you knife meticulously. Tadafusa could be an option if it's cladded, but the lower end models have quite bad fit and finish.

I'd vote for the Carbonext.

I've no experience with these knives but I'd want one that didn't need thinning oob. Have you looked at Tanaka?

I'd also suggest filling out the which knife questionnaire to get the best help here.

chinacats said:

I've no experience with these knives but I'd want one that didn't need thinning oob. Have you looked at Tanaka?

I'd also suggest filling out the which knife questionnaire to get the best help here.

Click to expand...

Yes, sir !

This forum is awesome

LOCATION
What country are you in? Belgium



KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in ? Chef

Are you right or left handed? right

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)? 20mm

Do you require a stainless knife? No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? 100$, but preferably below 80$



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment? home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for ? slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables primarily. I like to do sushi/sashimi, but I have one that does that already.

What knife, if any, are you replacing? Zwilling Pro Chef

What improvements do you want from your current knife? Durability, easy to sharp, sharp edge durability

Better aesthetics ? irrelevant for my budget

Comfort nope

Ease of Use ? ability to use the knife right out of the box; easier to sharpen

Edge Retention? As long as budget allows



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? I guess I need to upgrade my Ikea crap

Do you sharpen your own knives? I will, but never done so

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes

Interesting because I was in this exact same dilemma a while ago.

One thing up front: shipping for the Tojiro on "local Amazon" is deceptive, because it is still sent from Japan. This means you will be eligible for the usual customs tax and costs. So take that into account; the cost will almost certainly be higher.

Between the two knives... they are widely considered as rather similar knives, but there is 1 huge difference and several minor.

First the huge difference: the steel.
The Tojiro comes in VG-10 steel - actually laminated VG10 with softer stainless on the sides. This IS fully stainless and will generally survive being left on dirty on your cutting board for a night and will never discolor.
The Carbonext comes in a semi-stainless steel (without other steel on the sides). This means it's about halfway between a stainless knife and a normal carbon knife (which has no chromium at all). It will slightly discolor over time and in general it's still not a knife you want to just throw in the water to soak, or leave laying around dirty. But as long as you keep her nice and clean there's absolutely no problem, and it's a whole lot more forgiving than 'real' carbon.

Why bother with the semi-stainless or carbon? Well because it is a lot easier to get sharp, and gets a lot sharper. I consistently get my Carbonext a lot sharper in less time than all of my VG-10 knives. It's real easy, and by far the easier knife to learn sharpening on. VG-10 can be a bit more frustrating in that regard.

The advantages of the VG-10 are of course the fact that it's stainless, and that it actually holds its edge longer than the Carbonext. Carbonext get's sharper, and is easier to sharper, but its edge will definitly degrade faster in my opinion.

The other subtle differences are that the Carbonext is quite a bit lighter (you can compare the weight) and it has more distal taper. This means the spine of the knife thins down as you get towards the tip. The Tojiro has very little distal taper, but the Carbonext is really nice in this regard. This helps for example in doing the horizontal slices into onions.

Neither knife is likely to come with a really 'great' edge out of the box. Although I have to admit that the poor reputation of the Carbonext was ill-deserved in this regard; it shaved arm-hair without any problems. But it's always a gamble in these price ranges. However it's not trouble to correct this if you have sharpening stones. So if you go for it: don't get the extra sharpness option.

Both knives definitly suffer from being 'thick behind the edge' out of the box. With my carbonext the bevels relatively large because the knife was still rather thick down at the bottom. But this is a problem almost all knives in the lower price category have (both Western and European). Only exceptions I know are Robert Herder and Opinel.

This can be remedied, but it definitly takes a lot of time and effort (and goes a lot easier with a coarse stone). Then again, it's also a very educative experience. You will really notice a difference though, especially with stuff like carrots.
The thinning will make your knife look like **** though... unless you really know what you're doing. I evidently didn't so my Carbonext looks like it was dragged behind a truck, but it cuts really well now!

In the end I opted for the Carbonext because of the steel and the distal taper. I already had some knives in VG-10 and wasn't a fan of that; I preferred something easier to sharpen, and certainly found it. But it still is a little bit more expensive and does demand a bit more discipline in keeping your knife clean and dry.

Benuser said:

Sharpening VG-10 is no fun at all, and deburring will require three grits.

Click to expand...

But as a plus, if you can get comfortable sharpening and deburring VG-10, you will be comfortable sharpening most steels...I started out with VG-10, so I am used to it as a baseline. I was doing fine using two stones (1k, 5k or 6k) and also a wine cork.

Jovidah said:

Why bother with the semi-stainless or carbon? Well because it is a lot easier to get sharp, and gets a lot sharper. I consistently get my Carbonext a lot sharper in less time than all of my VG-10 knives. It's real easy, and by far the easier knife to learn sharpening on. VG-10 can be a bit more frustrating in that regard.

The advantages of the VG-10 are of course the fact that it's stainless, and that it actually holds its edge longer than the Carbonext. Carbonext get's sharper, and is easier to sharper, but its edge will definitly degrade faster in my opinion.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the detailed comparaison ! You defintly convinced me on the advantages of going semi-stainless or carbon. About edge retention differential, what kind of ratio are we talking about? Like if carbon is the lower factor of, say, 1 month retention, how are the semi and stainless going to behave? More in the region of semi-stainless 2 months and stainless 3 months? Or much more subtle, like semi-stainless 1.2 months and stainless 1.4 months? Or is there no general principle about it?

About life time durability and wear, which one would behave better? Can I both keep them for life or pass them to my childfen, if properly cared for (and assuming the more carbon the more care - time not being an issue)?

Any similar experience on above (or other) sub-80$ full carbon?

richard said:

But as a plus, if you can get comfortable sharpening and deburring VG-10, you will be comfortable sharpening most steels...I started out with VG-10, so I am used to it as a baseline. I was doing fine using two stones (1k, 5k or 6k) and also a wine cork.

Click to expand...

Learning the though way, also an interesting idea

The edge retention comparison was only between the Carbonext and the VG-10's. You can't really make 'general' comparisons between entire categories of steel (carbon vs stainless or semi-stainless) because there's so many different types of steel within the categories.

Between these two specifically...well it's difficult to say as it's a very subjective thing. Also depends on how much you abuse it... so I'm a bit hesitant to quantify it. It's noticable but not leagues of differences...so maybe 1,5 times as long for the VG-10?
If you learn how to sharpen yourself it isn't incredibly significant anyway; you sharpen slightly more often, but it takes you much less time. It's a toss-up. Unless you're a really lazy sharpener. But it would for example be a factor when I'm choosing a knife for my parents that I can only sharpen every once every few months.

Life time durability. Well lets face it. You're already standing with one leg in the knife addiction boat. There's a reason these cheaper Japanese knifes are called 'gateway knives'. If you buy either of them, chances are you'll be leaving far more expensive knives to your children. :biggrin:
There are a few more cheapo (full) carbon options around like Misono but they're generally in the same price range or more expensive. Only really cheaper alternative is Robert Herder, but they don't offer chef knives in that price category, only Santoku's. But that's definitly a softer carbon. Very easy to sharpen though, but will also need it a lot more often (also more than the Carbonext).

You may get the Masahiro Virgin Carbon 210mm gyuto for some 90$ with JCK.

Easy got my attention when he mentioned the Suisin. I've not owned a knife from their high carbon line but have had (and have) others. FF is always impeccable. Excellent values. No reason to think high carbon would be different.

The trait that carbonext and Torjiho seem to share is they both need a tune-up before use. Can't see the wisdom of selling an entry level knife that require sharpening proficiency OOB.

daveb said:

Easy got my attention when he mentioned the Suisin. I've not owned a knife from their high carbon line but have had (and have) others. FF is always impeccable. Excellent values. No reason to think high carbon would be different.

The trait that carbonext and Torjiho seem to share is they both need a tune-up before use. Can't see the wisdom of selling an entry level knife that require sharpening proficiency OOB.

Click to expand...

+1 to all that

daveb said:

Easy got my attention when he mentioned the Suisin. I've not owned a knife from their high carbon line but have had (and have) others. FF is always impeccable. Excellent values. No reason to think high carbon would be different.

Click to expand...

+1 If Suisin is within the acceptable price range, get it. That's a no-brainer.

mark76 said:

+1 If Suisin is within the acceptable price range, get it. That's a no-brainer.

Click to expand...

It's 97$ + shipping. Really trying to get sub-75/80$, but that seems rather difficult...

Shipping from America is very expensive, some 40€, and don't forget your local VAT and handling costs.

daveb said:

Easy got my attention when he mentioned the Suisin. I've not owned a knife from their high carbon line but have had (and have) others. FF is always impeccable. Excellent values. No reason to think high carbon would be different.

The trait that carbonext and Torjiho seem to share is they both need a tune-up before use. Can't see the wisdom of selling an entry level knife that require sharpening proficiency OOB.

Click to expand...

I can see your point there. To me it didn't matter much; the Carbonext was really intended as a 'training' knife for me and really served that role well. F&F on it was good as well and the thick edge was the only problem.
Suisin recommendation makes sense, but again, impossible to get cheaply in Europe. Korin France sells it for 180 dollars...

If you're trying to stay below 70/80 you're pretty much left with the DP. Maybe you could get one of the restaurant lines from Masahiro for that kind of price as well but that'd be a gamble.
There's still the cheaper Fujiwara lines (also in carbon) but essentially they come with all the same 'problems' the DP and Carbonext come with.

Another maybe a silly suggestion... but in that 'just above 100' price range you could also go with this:
http://www.knivesandtools.nl/nl/pt/-eden-kanso-aogami-koksmes-23-cm.htm
It's actually comes from Shiro Kamo (a pretty well-renowned smith) and the knife is continuously reviewed favourably on the German forums. Supposed to be a great knife for the price. It is a carbon knife though, and they run a bit short, so you have to get the 23 cm version to get a 20-21 cm knife.

I wouldn't recommend their Eden VG-10 lines anymore. They are really cheap by now I've had to conclude that they suffer from too much problems (crappy heat treat mostly) and too much variation (for example mine had a pretty nice taper, but a friend's knife actually had negative taper and was twice as thick as mine).

I don't think there's any gambling in getting a Masahiro Virgin Carbon.

I was actually talking about the rosewood handle versions (those can be had even cheaper)..they're on a few places on ebay and rakuten. Really cheap but a complete gamble as I never saw any reviews.
I really know nothing absolutely nothing about the Masahiro you're talking about so I can't really chime in there. All I know is that Masahiro is a pretty big OEM so more of us might have used some of their knives than we think.

Interesting; looks like it has quite a bit more height to it than most of the cheaper 210 gyuto's. Review also speaks of thinning though. Only downsides to me would be the pretty big assymmetry. But it still sounds pretty cheap, especially if it's HRC 61-62 as the reviewer says and not the usual cheaper softer stuff.

The few ones I've seen in use were not especially thick behind the edge. As for their asymmetry, just the same as for Misonos or Hiromotos. Figures like 70/30 or 80/20 don't mean much, besides that the edge is strongly off-centered to the left.

You're right about the assymmetry; I guess most models have it. But the Tojiro and Carbonext are pretty simple 50/50 (or can be sharpened as such without running into any trouble). Although admittedly the Masahiro's look pretty much flat-ground to me as well.

Regarding the steel, I dug this up: http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/printpost.php?tid/780637/pid/1072890/
Says it's at 59 HRC.

Found the pics at bluewayjapan. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-MASAHIRO-Carbon-Steel-Gyuto-Knife-210mm-13011-/381564046602
Interestingly enough it looks almost exactly the same as my carbonext. Same profile same level of taper. Maybe Masahiro makes them?

IIRC the Masahiros are a bit harder than my carbon Misonos and Herder 1922.

Don't expect any Japanese knife -- or any knife for the matter -- to be strictly symmetric. Follow the existing configuration unless you have good reasons to change anything. Don't count your strokes, but sharpen sides independently, until you've reached the very edge. Test for steering and balance friction on both sides.

To give an idea of that steering correction: one of my favourite petties is a Nogent, made of soft carbon steel. After a year or so of use and frequent sharpening the worst irregularities had been smoothed out. It's a very thin blade and only today when abusively using it on a small piece of hard old cheese I noticed a counter-clockwise steering. Simply, because I had neglected thinning of the left side for some time. Totally irrelevant for its practical use, but repaired in a few minutes on a medium-coarse stone and verifying the very edge.
I should add that with larger, heavier and thicker blades it's no longer irrelevant but rather essential in daily work.