How to evaluate knives without seeing them first?

I am new to Japanese kitchen knives and I am having trouble figuring what to try next.

At the moment I have a 210mm Azai Hyabusa Gyuto and a 120mm Yoshikane SDK petty.

I like knives where everything is done in-house (forging, cladding, handles, etc...) and that aren't overly fancy. I am thinking about a Takeda 210mm gyuto (probably the classic), a Yoshimitsu White #1 Gyuto 240mm, and a Konosuke Fujiyama Gyuto in White #1. I think White #1 would be an interesting steel to try but honestly I care more about the workmanship than the steel.

There are so many makers that it isn't something that I can easily sort out or evaluate over the internet. I can tell what is visually appealing but it is hard to really get an understanding of the production and quality. I like the idea of one guy doing the work all the way through the process (I think knives are something where this is viable to get a really nice product...unlike say a watch, where you are going to end with something horrible if one guy makes every part).

I guess my question is what are the top tier makers that do their entire production start to finish? Again I don't want a really fancy handle or cladding.

Why not look at American makers like Randy Haas of HHH knives, Devin Thomas, Michael Rader, Marko Tsourkan, Butch Harner, Dave Martell?

Beautiful knives but they all seem to have fancy handles and/or blades.

They don't have to. With a custom purchase the maker will make whatever you desire.

Almost no Japanese makers do everything in house by themselves... Some do more than others, but almost no one does 100% by themselves.

Konosuke Fujiyama all day. Always good looking, always even better performing. Superior to the other knives that are all the rage these days in my book and priced better

Which aspects are less commonly done in-house? The cladding? I have seen these beautiful Tsukasa Hinoura knives (about 3x the price I want to stay in) I was told they do everything themselves. Which makers in the $300-$500 range (for 210-240mm gyuto) do more of the work themselves?

easy13 said:

Konosuke Fujiyama all day. Always good looking, always even better performing. Superior to the other knives that are all the rage these days in my book and priced better

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Good to know...must be why they are out of stock everywhere. You think they are better than Takeda? Takeda has a great look to them but again I haven't seen any of these knives in person.

easy13 said:

Konosuke Fujiyama all day. Always good looking, always even better performing. Superior to the other knives that are all the rage these days in my book and priced better

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Missed your last sentence, Kono not one fella doing whole blade start to finish but I stick by my story on performance and superiority

Travel to cities with good knife shops--first stop, Beverly Hills and JKI. Short of that, buy and sell them on BST. I've bought a couple dozen on BSTs of this forum and its predecessor just to try them. Until last year, Portland didn't have a cutlery shop with serious J knives. I've bought plenty new from AFrames, JCK, etc. and played with them a while and then sold them. Expect to lose about 20% off what you paid new, and cover postage, when selling--unless you have today's darling, e.g., a Kato or Shig, and then just maybe you won't lose money. When I started out Suiens and Tadefusas were the reigning lazers. This too shall pass... FWIW, through it all Wantanabe seems to remain an inside favorite of the intelligentsia.

RubbishCook said:

Which aspects are less commonly done in-house? The cladding? I have seen these beautiful Tsukasa Hinoura knives (about 3x the price I want to stay in) I was told they do everything themselves. Which makers in the $300-$500 range (for 210-240mm gyuto) do more of the work themselves?



Good to know...must be why they are out of stock everywhere. You think they are better than Takeda? Takeda has a great look to them but again I haven't seen any of these knives in person.

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very few places do their own cladding... man buy pre-clad bar stock or sheets. Almost no one makes their own handles and sayas. Hinoura-san does the cladding for the Tsukasa knvies (really high end stuff), but even then, they buy handles and sayas from someone else. That being said, they are on the closer side of doing everything themselves.

JBroida said:

very few places do their own cladding... man buy pre-clad bar stock or sheets. Almost no one makes their own handles and sayas. Hinoura-san does the cladding for the Tsukasa knvies (really high end stuff), but even then, they buy handles and sayas from someone else. That being said, they are on the closer side of doing everything themselves.

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So then in your opinion who would come the closest in the $300-$500 range for a 210mm gyuto? Or perhaps a better question would be what is the most important quality aspect of a knife at this price point to look for that would differentiate itself from the pack?

RubbishCook said:

So then in your opinion who would come the closest in the $300-$500 range for a 210mm gyuto? Or perhaps a better question would be what is the most important quality aspect of a knife at this price point to look for that would differentiate itself from the pack?

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How does it cut ?

RubbishCook said:

So then in your opinion who would come the closest in the $300-$500 range for a 210mm gyuto? Or perhaps a better question would be what is the most important quality aspect of a knife at this price point to look for that would differentiate itself from the pack?

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there are a lot of factors... being that i sell a number of knives, i'm going to stay out of this part of the conversation to keep my bias out of it as much as possible. If there are questions as to how things are made or more objective things, i'd be happy to help out though.

Fair enough. Thank you for the information.

Based on my experience, I'd avoid Kono Fujiyama. Initially pretty knives that I don't think have much to them. Designed to catch the eyes of foreign buyers.

Watanabe and his relative Toyama both make mostly in-house knives and don't dress things up for gaijin. Also I like Theory's suggestuon about non-J makers. How about M.Tansu who'll do it all himself I believe, and even if he makes some bling handles and finishes for customers, I know he isn't into that himself. Heiji knives are a small op and also have a no-nonsense finish. Hell, Kato does it himself exc for the handles and the knives just have a functional finish

For what it's worth - Maxim states in the description on his site that the Toyama Noborikoi knives he offers are made completely by the maker. But I guess that the handles (traditional ho wood with water buffalo horn) are sourced from elsewhere. I do not think it make much sense to produce somthing that is basically a 'mass produced comodity' at your own workshop at much higher price.

As was metioned before - you may need to go to non-japanese makers to get a knife made from A-Z by the maker. My kurouchi funayuki from Carter was, to my knowledge, made by him - including the lamination. Whether some of his apprentices worked on the handle is something I do not know. As far as I know Andy Billipp does all the work by himself - including forging the damascus and making the handles and sayas. But there are many others.

Asteger said:

Based on my experience, I'd avoid Kono Fujiyama. Initially pretty knives that I don't think have much to them. Designed to catch the eyes of foreign buyers.

Watanabe and his relative Toyama both make mostly in-house knives and don't dress things up for gaijin. Also I like Theory's suggestuon about non-J makers. How about M.Tansu who'll do it all himself I believe, and even if he makes some bling handles and finishes for customers, I know he isn't into that himself. Heiji knives are a small op and also have a no-nonsense finish. Hell, Kato does it himself exc for the handles and the knives just have a functional finish

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+1 to Watanabe pro (still trying Toyama, though). No frills and it cuts wonderfully.

Suggest you fill out "first knife questionnaire" at the top of this forum. It will walk through some of the evaluation criteria more commonly used for knives and you can rank order them as well as include your own. From there you'll get some recommendations that are tailored to your requirements.

Email Shinichi Watanabe and ask about his process. He usually responds within 24-48 hours. He's one of the few Japanese knife makers you can communicate directly in English.

You could get a beautiful knife to your specifications. Being a multi-generational knife maker with an engineering education, his knives are well made for function and durability.

Asteger said:

Based on my experience, I'd avoid Kono Fujiyama. Initially pretty knives that I don't think have much to them. Designed to catch the eyes of foreign buyers.

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Besides those Sakura ones with the etching, most Konos have plain Ho Wood handles or another simple wood. I think there are plenty of other knives out there that are overly pretty with bells and whistles handles, etc... That cost a lot more than they perform. I got a Kono Fujiyama White 2 recently fro $240 that tops other $500 knives without a doubt. Had a Kono Blue for a bit more, also great performer.But, each person has their own opinion/likes in a blade

My fujis (w1,w2,b2 honyaki) are some of the best cutters i have. I highly recommend looking into them or maybe something from jki kochi line, theyre great performers as well. I have yet to try watanabe or toyama but i have a feeling those will be next on my list lol

There is really no way to evaluate a knife without actually using it.

That said, you can try to rely on other people's evaluations, keeping in mind that these can be very subjective. If you take this path, you need to be wary of marketing disguised as impartial reviews.

Participating in a pass around is a good way to gain experience in the characteristics you prefer in a knife. If you can afford it, buying and reselling on the B/S/T can prove to be a good way to do this as well.

If you have an idea of what you are looking for, perhaps the best method is to commission a knife from a custom bladesmith who is quite familiar with the performance that is needed from a kitchen knife, and is willing to ensure this performance when making your knife.

Rick

If you don't insist on getting a knife from Japan, I think you can get a knife that's completely made by one person, including handle. Some of the custom makers frequently mentioned here I believe do all the work themselves. I'm almost certain Marko Tsourkan does, Andy Billipp the same, Mert Tansu with most of his knives, Ian Rogers the same... Ealy and Harner the same. Some might use Damascus from another maker, but if you don't insist on Damascus, you should be able to get a knife that's 100% made by the same person. Dalman would be another example.

I don't see the value in that, to be honest. Especially when it comes to handles. If a maker excels at making blades, why not let him focus on that instead of also spending time on mastering making good albeit simple handles? Most Japanese handles are rather simple, and why shouldn't they be mass produced?

I suppose they are more complicated than I thought. The handle for me is the least important part. Do you think one of the custom makers will be able to make me a small gyuto (180-210mm) for $400?

RubbishCook said:

I suppose they are more complicated than I thought. The handle for me is the least important part. Do you think one of the custom makers will be able to make me a small gyuto (180-210mm) for $400?

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Dalman should be right around that price, yes. Marko could be, I think, if it's not too fancy and maybe more towards 180mm, but I'm not 100% sure. The others probably not, Billipp is not taking any orders anyway, Haburn should be more ... Maybe Ealy? Shoot him an email

I will reach out to Dalman and Marko.

Also what do people think of Doug Campbell knives?

http://www.bladegallery.com/shopexd.asp?id=93276&photo=3&size=n

I like the look of this one though there seems to be no taper to it.


Whoops. No edit.

Be aware that Marko has had his custom order list closed for several years. You might pick up a ready made one which he offers occasionally either through first come first serve online or through a lottery.

RubbishCook said:

I will reach out to Dalman and Marko.

Also what do people think of Doug Campbell knives?

http://www.bladegallery.com/shopexd.asp?id=93276&photo=3&size=n

I like the look of this one though there seems to be no taper to it..

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I'm not throwing rocks at the maker or the knife but I don't see anything compelling about it.

The description sets off my BS meter.

That said there's nothing wrong with liking it. What do you like about it?

daveb said:

I'm not throwing rocks at the maker or the knife but I don't see anything compelling about it.
The description sets off my BS meter.
That said there's nothing wrong with liking it. What do you like about it?

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Haha, I have no knowledge of this maker, etc, but just enjoyed Dave's comments

Asteger said:

Haha, I have no knowledge of this maker, etc, but just enjoyed Dave's comments

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As far as I can tell from the pictures, there is no distal taper, but the description tells us, "It is nicely distal tapered for optimal balance."

Is the description for a different knife?