Who Makes Naked (unclad) White #1 knives?

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RubbishCook

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I would like to buy an unclad White #1 Gyuto and I would like to know the manufacturers make them.

I know Sukenari Honyaki is one but I have not seen any others so far and would like to tap the knowledge of the forum.

Thank you in advance.
 
Konosuke Fujiyama makes white #1 knives, as well as white #2 and blue #1 & #2.
 
Out of curiosity, why uncladded White#1? The stuff is basically made for laminates.
 
A KS is white 2. I doubt I could tell the difference between white 1 and white 2 in practical use
 
The Ashi/Gesshin Ginga's come in pure white, but it's white #2. JCK has/had some relatively affordable Hiromoto honyaki's flying around...but also all white #2. Then there's the Masamoto KS people here referred to...also white #2. Anyone spotting a trend here?:laugh:
Who knows; maybe it makes more sense to make a gyuto out of #2 instead of #1, or otherwise you'd break it? You're pretty much talking precious fragile honyaki territory here...
 
Jovidah said:
Who knows; maybe it makes more sense to make a gyuto out of #2 instead of #1, or otherwise you'd break it? You're pretty much talking precious fragile honyaki territory here...
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It's possible to make a decent monosteel white #1 blade but excess carbon can be counterproductive. The numbers are not a linear scale of "goodness" or "potential" or "hardness". #2 and #3 are more interesting if you're heat treating for performance.
 
Thanks for the responses. I like mono steel knives and White #1 seems like an interesting material to try. The Hiromoto Honyaki's look nice...why were the limited edition versions for JCK so much cheaper than the standard ones with black handles?
 
jacko9 said:
Konosuke Fujiyama makes a Honyaki Series in Blue #2

http://www.**************.com/koho.html

Jack
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Konosuke is a brand

Fujiyama is a series/line

That is a Honyaki, which may or may not be made by the same smith who makes (one or more of) the Fujiyama series knives.

All knives marketed under the "Fujiyama" moniker are clad.

HTH

TTB
 
Sukenari makes a white 1 Honyaki line. So it is possible to make a white 1 mono steel blade. I would say if there was a market for them, they would be offered.
 
Chicagohawkie said:
Sukenari makes a white 1 Honyaki line. So it is possible to make a white 1 mono steel blade. I would say if there was a market for them, they would be offered.
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but that doesnt mean that its a good idea... there are quite a few knives that are made solely or primarily for export because they make absolutely no sense in real use, but foreign markets ask for them. Doesnt always mean its a good thing.
 
There are a decent amount of mono steel carbon knives, just not many in white steel. It seems to me that white #1 is most commonly found on traditional Japanese single bevel knives or on very expensive clad western style knives. Is the steel impractical for use in a kitchen? What makes it undesirable?
 
JBroida said:
but that doesnt mean that its a good idea... there are quite a few knives that are made solely or primarily for export because they make absolutely no sense in real use, but foreign markets ask for them. Doesnt always mean its a good thing.
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Totally agree Jon. Let me ask the question then. Why is it not a good idea to make a white 1 mono steel blade?
 
Chicagohawkie said:
Totally agree Jon. Let me ask the question then. Why is it not a good idea to make a white 1 mono steel blade?
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to maximize potential of the steel, it would end up being too brittle and prone to cracking... to HT in a way that would make it not so, would be very close to white #2 anyways, and not worth it IMHO. Its like putting a 1000hp engine in a car that can only handle up to 500hp with the transmision, etc.
 
JBroida said:
to maximize potential of the steel, it would end up being too brittle and prone to cracking... to HT in a way that would make it not so, would be very close to white #2 anyways, and not worth it IMHO. Its like putting a 1000hp engine in a car that can only handle up to 500hp with the transmision, etc.
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Your talking about the 1966 Plymouth Belvedere with the 426 Hemi factory installed - one of my buddies got one and when he jumped on it the whole car frame twisted as that monster took off!

White #1 Steel is great in a well supported clad knife but, I wouldn't want a mono steel blade.
 
JBroida said:
to maximize potential of the steel, it would end up being too brittle and prone to cracking... to HT in a way that would make it not so, would be very close to white #2 anyways, and not worth it IMHO. Its like putting a 1000hp engine in a car that can only handle up to 500hp with the transmision, etc.
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So then the steel on the Sukenari Honyaki White #1 Gyuto knives wont have any benefits over a White #2 knife with a good HT? If White #1 is clad the steel can be more brittle? Lots to learn here...
 
RubbishCook said:
So then the steel on the Sukenari Honyaki White #1 Gyuto knives wont have any benefits over a White #2 knife with a good HT? If White #1 is clad the steel can be more brittle? Lots to learn here...
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I think there is a delicate balance between hardness vs toughness with extreme hardness exhibiting brittle characteristics. I have a white #1 with stainless steel cladding from Teruyasu Fujiwara that is heat treated to RcH 65 and that knife if abused on the board (twisted through hard product or frozen product, etc.) can chip. The Sukenari Honyaki White #1 is I'm sure an excellent knife but I would keep it away from bones and frozen food, etc. I'm sure that it's an excellent slicer for veggies and protein but, I have no experience with that brand and this is just my inexperienced opinion.
 
RubbishCook said:
So then the steel on the Sukenari Honyaki White #1 Gyuto knives wont have any benefits over a White #2 knife with a good HT? If White #1 is clad the steel can be more brittle? Lots to learn here...
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not exactly... they will be different. The question is do the benefits make sense relative to the costs. Also, will the differences be pertinent to you as an end user. White #1 heat treated to maximize the potential of white #1 will be rather brittle, and thus doesnt make as much sense for the intended purposes of a gyuto as it does in a yanagiba. White #2 with a HT designed to maximize its potential is a better fit for the intended purposes of a gyuto in my opinion... but its just that... my opinion. YMMV
 
JBroida said:
not exactly... they will be different. The question is do the benefits make sense relative to the costs. Also, will the differences be pertinent to you as an end user. White #1 heat treated to maximize the potential of white #1 will be rather brittle, and thus doesnt make as much sense for the intended purposes of a gyuto as it does in a yanagiba. White #2 with a HT designed to maximize its potential is a better fit for the intended purposes of a gyuto in my opinion... but its just that... my opinion. YMMV
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I should keep my head out of this, but I think people will read more into this statement than is really there.

I think it comes from a persistent widespread belief that more carbon always means more hard, or that #1 must be "above" #2 in rank. Therefore, there will be a belief that a single-bevel blade with the thinner edge and more "cautious" expected use scenario will permit more extreme steel performance characteristics than a gyuto, and that the gyuto is just wasting all that #1 awesomeness. I think you may have unintentionally reinforced this popular feeling with the engine/body analogy, though again I think there's validity to the statement.

I think it is good for folks to remember than simple steel with 2% carbon is essentially cast iron. It is not an absolutely positive thing to have a massive amount of C in a simple steel, and has drawbacks beyond just being brittle when hardened (white #2 is well into that range too).

White #1 is a pretty brilliant material for laminates (starting with mild steel or iron) and introduces a bunch of challenges for makers who want to extract different benefits from it. In my opinion, it is not really destined for monosteel use (the wrong engine for the chassis). It can be worked with (and might be somewhat forgiving in some atmospheres), but one can also make a saya out of aluminium foil if they put their mind to it.
 
XooMG said:
I should keep my head out of this, but I think people will read more into this statement than is really there.

I think it comes from a persistent widespread belief that more carbon always means more hard, or that #1 must be "above" #2 in rank. Therefore, there will be a belief that a single-bevel blade with the thinner edge and more "cautious" expected use scenario will permit more extreme steel performance characteristics than a gyuto, and that the gyuto is just wasting all that #1 awesomeness. I think you may have unintentionally reinforced this popular feeling with the engine/body analogy, though again I think there's validity to the statement.

I think it is good for folks to remember than simple steel with 2% carbon is essentially cast iron. It is not an absolutely positive thing to have a massive amount of C in a simple steel, and has drawbacks beyond just being brittle when hardened (white #2 is well into that range too).

White #1 is a pretty brilliant material for laminates (starting with mild steel or iron) and introduces a bunch of challenges for makers who want to extract different benefits from it. In my opinion, it is not really destined for monosteel use (the wrong engine for the chassis). It can be worked with (and might be somewhat forgiving in some atmospheres), but one can also make a saya out of aluminium foil if they put their mind to it.
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fair enough... i probably should pay closer attention to how i say things, but you're absolutely right
 
Thank you for the information. I was curious about the steel because I read how difficult it is to make knives out of it.

CKTG says that the Sukenari Honyaki White #1 knifes are some of the finest on the website and JCK says "Due to the extra difficulty of sharpening and its characteristics (extra high hardness and delicate), we recommend Honyaki knives for serious experienced users and professionals who demands extra high cutting performance and art of Japanese Tradition."

At $700+ a knife the benefits relative to the cost argument becomes de minimis...for me at least. I am not professional chef but I like knives and I want to try different steels. I still want to try one as a curiosity but perhaps I better brush up on my knife skills a bit first.
 
i was also interested in finding a white 1 gyuto years ago (not so much anymore). i thought more carbon = more absolute sharpness but that's not really the case at all. in previous research i found information stating white 1 as rather chippy and ignored it. my experiences with this steel is limited (fujiwara) but it does seem rather fragile compared to other white 2 gyutos i have used (masamoto, yusuke, ashi hamono, masakage). i am actually more interested to try a gyuto made in white 3.. a honyaki version more specifically. i imagine it to be a fair deal tougher, eapecially compared to white 1. some people diss sk4 for being a "cheap" carbon steel but it sharpens up quite well to me and takes minimal effort. yes its impure, but still less so than the iron cladding on a lot of white and blue knives. im probably on my own with this though.
 
RubbishCook said:
Thank you for the information. I was curious about the steel because I read how difficult it is to make knives out of it.

CKTG says that the Sukenari Honyaki White #1 knifes are some of the finest on the website and JCK says "Due to the extra difficulty of sharpening and its characteristics (extra high hardness and delicate), we recommend Honyaki knives for serious experienced users and professionals who demands extra high cutting performance and art of Japanese Tradition."

At $700+ a knife the benefits relative to the cost argument becomes de minimis...for me at least. I am not professional chef but I like knives and I want to try different steels. I still want to try one as a curiosity but perhaps I better brush up on my knife skills a bit first.
Click to expand...

Not sure how valid this is for others... but I have my own rule of thumb in this regard. If I have to ask whether a more specialized/fragile/'difficult' knife is suitable for me... it isn't. Yet. ;) By the time I'm experienced enough to make that step I probably won't have to ask it.
But maybe I'm a bit too slow and hesitant in that regard.

masibu said:
i was also interested in finding a white 1 gyuto years ago (not so much anymore). i thought more carbon = more absolute sharpness but that's not really the case at all. in previous research i found information stating white 1 as rather chippy and ignored it. my experiences with this steel is limited (fujiwara) but it does seem rather fragile compared to other white 2 gyutos i have used (masamoto, yusuke, ashi hamono, masakage). i am actually more interested to try a gyuto made in white 3.. a honyaki version more specifically. i imagine it to be a fair deal tougher, eapecially compared to white 1. some people diss sk4 for being a "cheap" carbon steel but it sharpens up quite well to me and takes minimal effort. yes its impure, but still less so than the iron cladding on a lot of white and blue knives. im probably on my own with this though.
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Actually the part about SK4 doesn't surprise me too much. It's a pretty 'simple' alloy...so without much to get in the way of a sharp edge. It's the exact same thing with super cheap carbon Robert Herder knives or the ultra cheap Vietnamese carbon knives. I can get those wicked sharp in no time with almost no effort. Plain carbon with little alloys always sharpens easily, and seems to hold a great edge even when in the lower 50 HRC (Sabatier). Problem is holding that edge though...
 
masibu said:
i was also interested in finding a white 1 gyuto years ago (not so much anymore). i thought more carbon = more absolute sharpness but that's not really the case at all. in previous research i found information stating white 1 as rather chippy and ignored it. my experiences with this steel is limited (fujiwara) but it does seem rather fragile compared to other white 2 gyutos i have used (masamoto, yusuke, ashi hamono, masakage). i am actually more interested to try a gyuto made in white 3.. a honyaki version more specifically. i imagine it to be a fair deal tougher, eapecially compared to white 1. some people diss sk4 for being a "cheap" carbon steel but it sharpens up quite well to me and takes minimal effort. yes its impure, but still less so than the iron cladding on a lot of white and blue knives. im probably on my own with this though.
Click to expand...

If you are looking for a White #3 honyaki, Yoshikazu Ikeda does them at a very reasonable price =D
 
Jovidah said:
Not sure how valid this is for others... but I have my own rule of thumb in this regard. If I have to ask whether a more specialized/fragile/'difficult' knife is suitable for me... it isn't. Yet. ;) By the time I'm experienced enough to make that step I probably won't have to ask it.
But maybe I'm a bit too slow and hesitant in that regard.
Click to expand...

To be fair I think this is the knife that is appropriate for my skill level:
food-tool-friday-inspire-your-kids-cook-with-safe-mini-knife-set.w654.jpg


Again I am not a professional chef...these knifes are toys for me.

Going back to the car analogy...just because I cannot fully utilize a modern Ferrari's capabilities doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy driving one around with a bit of caution. If something breaks it's a bummer but not the end of the world.
 
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