Shun upgrade advice

Hello all, I'm looking to replace my 8" Shun Classic that I had reprofiled at MTC to 70/30. I've had it for years and like it a lot but am getting the itch to try something new.

I'm looking for something that's more workhorse than laser, easier to sharpen than the Shun (I'm just learning), and holds its super sharp edge longer. The Shun loses that nail-catching sharpness quicker than I'd like. I'd like a knife that complements my UX10. Something I could use to section chicken wings without fear. I'd also like to keep the stiffness of the Shun. Thoughts?

Thanks!

LOCATION
What country are you in? US. NYC

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in? Gyoto

Are you right or left handed? Right

Are you interested in a Western handle or Japanese handle? Western

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)? 210. Longer is too large for my space.

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no) Stainless or clad carbon.

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? $300. Prefer to go cheaper but willing to pay for quality.

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment? Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for? Veg prep, cutting down poultry, trimming.

What knife, if any, are you replacing? Shun Classic 8"

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? Pinch

What cutting motions do you primarily use? Rock, slice.

What improvements do you want from your current knife? Sharper. Better edge retention. Easier to sharpen

Better aesthetics? Don't really want anything flashy.

Comfort? I want to avoid knives that feel fragile.

Ease of Use? Sometimes the Shun feels too tall.

Edge Retention? As long as possible

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.) Yes. Hi soft.

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.) Yes and no. I'm learning for fun but am not good. Will probably have it initially sharpened at Korin so I know how sharp it can get, then do it myself from there.

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.) Yes. Have 1k and 4k King stones.

Stiff, easy to sharpen, great edge retention, ability to take a great edge AND be able to section chicken wings without fear... Would you like it to make you coffee as well? :biggrin:
I think it'd be difficult to find something that combines all these in the same blade, especially with your survivability criteria.

Jovidah said:

Would you like it to make you coffee as well?

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Sure, may as well add it to the list. But seriously, I do realize having everything at the same time is unrealistic. I'm also pretty new to all of this. I'd really just like a knife that will hold a sharper edge but doesn't feel fragile.

Here are some ideas:

Epicurean Edge Akifusa may fit the bill:http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=85650

Korin looks like they are out of stock of the Masamoto VG 210, but that is another easy to use stainless western handled gyuto.

JKI looks like they are out of stock of Gesshin Kagero 210 as well.

Zwilling Kramer Essential is tall but perhaps another possibility.

Tokyo Aframes:http://yhst-27988581933240.stores.yahoo.net/aritsugu-astyle-gyuto-210mm-blade-western-style-rose-wood-han210.html

JCK Hattori:http://http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/HattoriForumHighEndChefsKnives.html#HattoriFH

Mrip said:

Sure, may as well add it to the list. But seriously, I do realize having everything at the same time is unrealistic. I'm also pretty new to all of this. I'd really just like a knife that will hold a sharper edge but doesn't feel fragile.

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I see what you mean there. I'm not really sure if it's entirely possible; there's always tradeoffs involved.
You can make a knife sturdier by making it thicker, but it will wedge more and have more drag when going through food (although of course some makers are better at making a thicker geometry work than others).
Same with the edge; you can get it sharper but usually sharper also means more fragile. Harder metals will hold a sharper edge better but they are often more brittle as well.

I am certainly not the best to advise you on this...but I'd think about going in the direction of powdered metals. SG-2/R2 (it's the same thing, differnet names) or SRS-15... Akifusa is one of the better known options in that regard.
Getting a different VG-10 knife shouldn't make all that much of a difference so I'd rule out the Hattori.

It's a rarer combination of traits that you are looking for in a knife, but there is a workhorse I can think of that takes a better edge than a Shun, holds its edge longer and can also stand up to thin chicken bones: The Mac Ultimate chef knife, especially the older ones when they still used a tungsten high speed steel. I have one of these, and it's a beast. However, the shortest chef knife is 9"/230 mm and it's decently tall...at least as tall as the Shun. Also, they don't use a tungsten steel anymore in this line and they are priced pretty high, so that makes it hard for me to recommend them currently.

The Zwilling Kramer Essential is another I would agree with...I used one for better part of a year before replacing it with a ZK Meiji. Definitely not fragile at all, and probably would do OK with sectioning chicken wings I suspect, though I haven't tried that. But I didn't feel hesitant at all using mine on butternut squash, FWIW. It's really tall though, so you may not like it?

I would also agree with maybe going towards PM knives like SG-2/R-2 or SRS-15. But maybe not go through chicken wings with it. Akifusa, Ryusen Blazen or Takamura HSPS would be my top choices (the Takamura R2 red handle is too fragile for what you want, so stay away from that one).

If you want good edge retention go for the harder steels. Powder like SRS-15 and Tojiro High speed powder steel are good both knives are stiff and have some weight. The grind is thinner behind the edge on the Tojiro, and it is a very good cutter.

Think about it would you not rather have a knife with good edge retention and good grind as your everyday blade that glides through food like fruits and vegetables meat without bone. That is 90% of your cutting might as well have a blade that does it well. You cannot use it to cut harder objects for that use a softer thicker German or Swiss knife.

If you look for one knife that does it all, you will have a blade that does not do anything well.

keithsaltydog said:

If you look for one knife that does it all, you will have a blade that does not do anything well.

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Yes that's pretty much what I tried to say. If you want something for bone work, just get a cheap Victorinox fibrox on the side as a beater blade...and keep a proper blade for the proper cutting. No need to use the Ferrari to pull a caravan.

richard said:

It's a rarer combination of traits that you are looking for in a knife, but there is a workhorse I can think of that takes a better edge than a Shun, holds its edge longer and can also stand up to thin chicken bones: The Mac Ultimate chef knife, especially the older ones when they still used a tungsten high speed steel. I have one of these, and it's a beast. However, the shortest chef knife is 9"/230 mm and it's decently tall...at least as tall as the Shun. Also, they don't use a tungsten steel anymore in this line and they are priced pretty high, so that makes it hard for me to recommend them currently.

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When did they stop making them with tungsten and how can you tell if you have an older or newer version?
CutlerynMore still has tungsten in the item description of the MAC Ultimate.
http://www.cutleryandmore.com/mac-ultimate/chefs-knife-p18066

Thank you all for the replies! I appreciate you guys taking the time to help out a noob. Lot to think about here...

Quick question about Takamura HSPS. The MTC site literally has a bright red warning about the HSPS Pro being delicate, but there's no such warning for the red handle version. Is the thicker Pro somehow more fragile than the red handle version, even though they use the same steel? Is it really that delicate?

Mrip said:

Thank you all for the replies! I appreciate you guys taking the time to help out a noob. Lot to think about here...

Quick question about Takamura HSPS. The MTC site literally has a bright red warning about the HSPS Pro being delicate, but there's no such warning for the red handle version. Is the thicker Pro somehow more fragile than the red handle version, even though they use the same steel? Is it really that delicate?

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I can't answer about delicacy, but I got the girl the red-handled santoku and while she's not a knife nut, she immediately appreciated the difference to her old cheap Wusthof. We don't tend to cook meat with bones, though.

http://japanesechefsknife.com/SPECIALS.html#Specials

See the Deep Impact Syogeki series. Very thin behind the edge, put a very conservative edge on it and you enjoy both good performance and great edge retention.

Sorry I actually meant to recommend the HSPS Pro black handle (not the HSPS red handle...confusing because different sellers use different names). I think the word of caution is warranted...I wouldn't say it is "delicate", but it isn't meant for rough use like a Western chef knife. It's very possible other users have made that mistake since from the exterior, it looks more or less like a European knife, it has a decent weight to it, and it is thicker at the spine near the bolster (it's actually a forged knife not stamped like most Japanese knives). But it is really thin behind the edge (and thus it cuts very well) and the steel is very hard, so myself I wouldn't use it to section chicken wings (I have a very similar knife, the Ryusen Blazen). But I wouldn't consider it fragile for a Japanese knife, and since you are already have some experience with Japanese knives, you should consider it a option for a workhorse knife.

The HSPS red handle version is not a workhorse-type knife, it's definitely a laser. I would argue the site should have a word of caution for this knife as well, but maybe they didn't because they figured the impression is more obvious that it's a very thin, more delicate scalpel-like knife as soon as the user handles it...I don't know.

Since you are in NYC and mentioned that you've been to MTC, I'd suggest you make a visit and check out the Takamura HSPS Pro to see if it's to your liking. (They said it's out of stock, but hopefully there is still a display item and if you like it, they can tell you when to expect it to be back in stock).

Mrip said:

Thank you all for the replies! I appreciate you guys taking the time to help out a noob. Lot to think about here...

Quick question about Takamura HSPS. The MTC site literally has a bright red warning about the HSPS Pro being delicate, but there's no such warning for the red handle version. Is the thicker Pro somehow more fragile than the red handle version, even though they use the same steel? Is it really that delicate?

Click to expand...

HomeCook said:

When did they stop making them with tungsten and how can you tell if you have an older or newer version?
CutlerynMore still has tungsten in the item description of the MAC Ultimate.
http://www.cutleryandmore.com/mac-ultimate/chefs-knife-p18066

Click to expand...

We discussed this at KF and noticed this change on their website description back in 2011. If you notice on the Mac website, it lists: "Sub-zero tempered Superior Steel – the same steel as our Original Molybdenum steel but with an extra processing step to create better edge retention while maintaining the same ease of sharpening." Their website used to say this was the tungsten-added steel many years ago, it seems like Cutlery n More still hasn't updated their site to the new product description.

I don't know there is a way to differentiate between the older or newer one....other than if it's well before or after 2011, then you might have better confidence. I bought mine used back in 2005, so I think it's pretty safe for me to conclude that I have one of the older ones :wink:. Were you looking to get this knife, or do you already have one?

Yeah, I just picked one up on ebay for a good price. I wanted a tough beater and this was recommended. Maybe the box or insert will be dated. In any case, I wasn't willing to spend $275 so I'll be happy in any case for $150 less.

I recommend the Itinomonn StainLess gyuto. I own a petty of this line. It has the best edge retension I´ve experienced in a long time.
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-stainless-kasumi-240mm-wa-gyuto/
A 210 mm version is also avalibel at a lower price.
- Kim

Re Takamuras, I have both Pro and red handle HSPS 210mm, they are both amazing and I mainly use HSPS, it is crazy thin, light and nimble but also very very delicate and chips rather easily in not taken care of properly. PRO has a full tang whereas HSPS has a partial tang if that makes a difference to you. I really like my PM knives, I just only wish there was 240mm version. I think MTC may have 240mm Pro, but each time I looked it was sold out.

The reason why I mainly use HSPS is its weight, it is just so light that it feels like an extension of my hand. Pro is more heavy knife and I think more a workhorse and it may have just a little better finish.

They are very thin behind the edge and very very sharp!

After much consideration I think your recommendations here plus the internet in general convinced me to ease up my durability requirement. I have a couple cheap beaters I can use to whack through a chicken when I need to. I'm leaning towards powdered steel options such as the Akifusa, Takamura, or Tojiro. I've read they are more difficult to sharpen but hey, I gotta learn eventually.

Of those options I'm feeling a much stronger "I want it" factor from the Takamura Pro. I went to MTC to take a look. They didn't have the 210 in stock but the look and feel of the 240 Pro screams quality (and doesn't seem mass produced). I also like that the edge is thin but the somewhat thicker spine gives the knife a little more weight and makes it feel solid. Not to mention I can walk 2 blocks from my office to MTC for service.

I also went across town to Korin where the president and owner of Nenox were giving demonstrations and answering questions. Very cool. They brought some new powdered steel models that I don't believe are available yet, but they're way out of my price range anyway.

The 210 black handle should be in stock in "early April" so my plan is to wait and check it out, unless you guys manage to convince me otherwise before then. Thanks again for all the help.

Mtc got the 210 pro in stock in store. I was in the store looking for something else but the rep remembered me and that I was waiting for the 210 and opened up the shipping box to show me before they put them on display. I checked out a couple and bought one. This thing redefines sharp. It's unreal.

Had a chance to put it through the paces at home yet?

Yep, it just glides right through everything (including root veggies) and the cuts feel so smooth. I feel like I'm literally wielding a laser. The closest sharpness I've experienced is my Kamata santoku (silver 3/ginsanko), which is thicker at the spine and the steel feels grippier. FF is spot on and noticeably better than the UX10. On the UX10 the tang and rivets aren't exactly flush, but the entire handle of the Takamura is completely smooth. The included saya is nice enough I guess but it's not a piece I would want to spend money on.

The only downside isn't a surprise. It feels deceptively durable, and now I understand the warning on the mtc site. I accidentally tapped the edge of the blade against a cupboard handle that swung out unexpectedly. It wasn't more than a tap but it was enough to leave a mark. It didn't chip but created a tiny bent spot. Ugh. To damage the blade in such a stupid way is so demoralizing. In several years of having the Shun I managed to chip it once on a pork bone, but I deserved that one.

Hopefully the dent will come out without too much trouble as part of regular sharpening....I wouldn't worry too much about it, but yes it can be deceptive. It's very durable if you restrict it to chopping straight up and down and non-frozen/bone ingredients! :knife:

As for the F&F, yes it is very good, but the mismatch on the handle scales with the rivets and spine can sometimes (not always) develop over time with pakka/stamina wood handles. I actually have this small problem on my Ryusen Blazen (sister knife of the Takamura Pro), but not on my Ryusen Damascus or any of my three Misonos. With your UX10, it was very likely that it came off the line everything nice and tightly aligned, but as the material settled/shrink over time this happened, but it's not inevitable all such knives will do this, so I wouldn't get too paranoid. If I were to wager a guess, it's about 15-20% of the time that I've seen it, and it doesn't really affect my use of the knife.