First Serious Japanese Knife.

I understand these threads are like the plague but it appears the community here is a helpful one so after trawling these forums for weeks I'm going to ask for help on knife selection...

LOCATION
What country are you in?

AUSTRALIA

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?

I'M LOOKING TO GET MY FIRST SERIOUS JAPANESE KNIFE. I WAS PREVIOUSLY AN APPRENTICE CHEF AND HAD WUSTHOFS (15 YEARS AGO AND DIDN'T KNOW ANY BETTER). I WILL BE USING THIS KNIFE FOR HOME COOKING. I HAVE TO START FROM SCRATCH WITH A KNIFE COLLECTION SO WILL NEED SEVERAL BUT I'M THINKING A 210mm WA-GYUTO AND A WA-PETTY WOULD BE A GOOD START.

Are you right or left handed?

RIGHT

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?

WA HANDLED

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?

210MM GYUTO AND SMALL PETTY

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)

I AM OPEN TO RECOMMENDATIONS. I AM VERY CLEAN AND PARTICULAR IN THE KITCHEN AND HAVE THE TIME TO LOOK AFTER HARDER STEELS BUT AS IT'S A KNIFE I WILL BE PRACTICING MY BASIC SHARPENING SKILLS WITH (ON WETSTONES) SOMETHING THAT IS GOOD FOR A NOVICE SHARPENER MAY BE OF BENEFIT.

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?

I WOULD LIKE TO SPEND A MAXIMUM OF $350 ON THE GYUTO AND $150 ON THE PETTY ALTHOUGH I DO NOT NEED TO SPEND $350 ON THE GYUTO. I ALSO DON'T WANT TO FALL INTO THE TRAP OF ORDERING A KNIFE THAT WHILST AMAZING IS NOT MATCHED TO MY BASIC SKILL SET. I AM EASILY SWAYED INTO EXTRAVAGANT PURCHASES SO I NEED SOMETHING THAT I CAN TRULY APPRECIATE YET HAVE IT BE SOMETHING I CAN USE PROPERLY.

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?

100% HOME COOKING

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)

NO BONE WORK, OTHER THAN THAT I WILL BE USING THE KNIFE/KNIVES FOR EVERYTHING

What knife, if any, are you replacing?

ALL OF MY OLD WUSTHOFS

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)

PINCH GRIP

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)

PUSH CUT
ROCK CUT


What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE A KNIFE/KNIVES THAT I CAN BE PROUD OF, THAT I CAN TAKE GOOD CARE OF AND THAT HAVE PERFORMANCE THAT IS WELL REGARDED IN THIS COMMUNITY. THE COMPARISON ON TO MY OLD KNIVES IS USELESS AS THEY ARE SO DISPARATE.

SOME GOOD EDGE RETENTION AND EASE OF SHARPENING WOULD BE NICE AS WOULD SOMETHING WITH GOOD F + F. I DON'T WANT A COMPLETELY SPECIALISED KNIFE LIKE A LASER AS I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO HAVE A KNIFE/KNIVES WHICH ARE A BIT BETTER SUITED TO THE NOVICE AND APPLICABLE TO A SLIGHTLY WIDER RANGE OF TASKS. A MEDIUM WEIGHT (160-200ish grams for a 210mm GYUTO seems about right). GOOD FOOD RELEASE AND LESS WEDGING WOULD BE BENEFICIAL.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO ME THAT THE KNIFE IS HAND MADE AND FORGED (NOT STAMPED), BY A REPUTABLE MASTER CRAFTSMAN.


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)

END GRAIN

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)

YES. I HAVE TAKEN A SHARPENING CLASS AND AM READY TO PRACTISE.

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

YES

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)

YES. SHARPENING WILL BE A CRITICAL PART OF MY KNIFE PURCHASES

Hey dog,

Will the petty knife primarily be used for in hand use, or mostly board work like a utility knife?

Either of these would be a good start.
I have both in 240 size.
My personal preference is the nashiji, but the blue 2 may be better to learn sharpening.
They are both very good knives at a really good price point.


http://www.knivesandstones.com/tana...o-210mm-with-custom-octagonal-bubinga-handle/


http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-vg10-nashiji-gyuto-210mm-with-custom-octagonal-bubinga-handle/

Welcome! I would say you do not need (or want) to spend $350 on your first knife. The advice above is solid - James would definitely be a good source. Do not hesitate to drop him an emaill.

Have also a look at these ones:
http://www.knivesandstones.com/syou...-aogami-super-stainless-cladding-by-kurosaki/
http://www.knivesandstones.com/syou...10mm-aogami-super-stainless-clad-by-kurosaki/
Both are stainless clad super blue (though probably have different grinds and F&F) will have great edge retention and will be easy to maintain.

I would also repeat that starting with carbon (cutting core, cladding is less relevant) steel knife makes learning the sharpening easier as carbon steels are easier to sharpen (even the super blue is perfectly fine) and de-burr.

miyabi said:

Hey dog,

Will the petty knife primarily be used for in hand use, or mostly board work like a utility knife?

Click to expand...

I think the petty would primarily be for small on board jobs.

Thanks for the responses. It really helps to talk it out when you only know what you've read on the net. So am I right in assuming that blue steel is the best to learn how to sharpen on?

So it would be recommended to get a blue carbon for a first serious knife?

Maybe a Yoshikane like this one from Frank in Sydney would be an option?
https://www.ironchefknives.com.au/c...uto-210mm-d-shaped-traditional-ho-wood-handle

Good luck and much fun in your shopping!

dogdoghowl said:

Thanks for the responses. It really helps to talk it out when you only know what you've read on the net. So am I right in assuming that blue steel is the best to learn how to sharpen on?

So it would be recommended to get a blue carbon for a first serious knife?

Click to expand...

It's a good way.
I started out with stainless, as long as you debur properly you are ok.
But yes, carbon is a good starting point.

About that Youshikane SKD gyuto. I do not have one, but have Yoshikane SKD Hakata Santoku and if I make the assumption that the gyuto has the same type of grind, than one can expect the following:

The knife is a wide bevel design - what gives an edge that is reasonably thin (basically zero ground - straight down to the edge), but not all that thin further up and some wedging is to be expected in thick carrots and the like.

The wide bevel is nearly flat what on one hand works as guide during sharpening, but it also restricts the way you sharpen the knife. While not hard, I would not recommend a wide bevel knife to someone who just learns sharpening. 'Normal' convex grind of some sort is better IMO.

SKD is semi stainless tool steel better known as A2. Yoshikane runs it very hard and gets some incredible edge holding out of it, but at the expense of increassed micro-chipping risk (certainly no rocking with that knife). Micro-bevel is a must - another thing that a beginner may struggle with at first.

There really is a whole world of knives to choose from. It's pretty daunting. Thanks guys for getting me onto K & S. Looks like a great shop, with reasonable prices and F+F upgrades much like Jon at JKI and Maksim at JNS offer through working with the knife makers directly. And it's in Oz which is great.

I'll definitely be talking to James when he gets back from his trip to Japan. At the moment I'm leaning toward a Syousin Chiku. I like the profile and they seem to have been well received. The price point looks very fair too. Just a matter of deciding which one to go for and then find a petty and some stones....

Also, what length petty is the most useful for home cooking to compliment a gyuto?

For me 150-180 mm.

At work i use a 240mm gyuto and a 120mm petty, but at home i reach for a 165-180mm santoku/bunka most of the time.
BTW, that Syousin Chiku KU Gyuto looks good to me.

The length of a petty depends on use. If you use for slicing that 180 is definitely better than 150, but for finer tasks I would say 100 is better. I use a lot 110mm R2 paring knife from Blazen and LOVE it (it has full height bolster - no sharp heel sticking out, thin and narrow blade - excellent for in-hand cutting). Next in size for me is 150 - that is what we have (the most used knife of my wife), but I personally would prefer 180. Then I use a lot (vegetables) my different santoku incarnations (funayuki from Carter, Hakata from Yoshikane and K-tip santoku from Kochi - all 3 in size 165 - 180) that get the most work. I use my 255 Billipp gyuto for larger tasks or simply when I feel like it.

If you get 210 mid-weight gyuto, than the need for a tall knife in 165 - 180 range will be less, but a 180 petty will be very useful - also for slicing smaller meats, removing silver skin (OK, that works as well with 150). I would recommend to find one that as little flex as possible (Yoshikane falls in this category, but so do many others) - it gives you more precision when working with the tip. latter you may want to add a smaller knife (peeler). Again - the 110 R2 Blazen (you will find these on EpicEdge) is one of very few knives with that design. I also have an 80mm petty from Kato, but use it only when I want a short stout blade (e.g. when portioning raw cauliflower and I want to be sure that the tip is not going to show where I do not expect it).

So - there you go

These are all good recommendations but it leads me to wonder if you limited your initial kit for home cooking to two or three knife sizes/shapes, what would be the best combination?

I would probably go with the following:

2 knives:
- 150 petty
- 210/240 gyuto

3 knives:
- 100/120 paring knife (you know which one )
- 165/180 funayuki/K-tip santoku/Hakata - simply shorter tall blade with usable tip and not too much belly
- 240 gyuto

I would much prefer the 3 knife option over the with just 2. Frankly - the 3 knife option could really be the base for normal use for me - on top of that I would want to have a bread knife and a honesuki as a special use knives. Of course, I have more knives than that, but that is the difficulty to disentangle between 'need' and 'want

I like the 43 knife option. Still want a couple more but don't really need them. Except of course a 2nd yani....

With 1 knife, a Gyuto, you'll cover 75% or more of your cutting requirements. Add a petty (I like 180) and you'll pick up another 10-15%. A third knife to cover the type of cutting you do such as paring, bread knife, fish and/or meat slicing, etc.

Suggest the two knife route and see what you're missing. And save some coin for stones. Lots of stones.:cool2:

Ok, so I've tooled around and settled on two knives so far:

This 210mm Syousin Chiku KU Kurosaki Gyuto http://www.knivesandstones.com/syou...-aogami-super-stainless-cladding-by-kurosaki/

And this 150mm Itinomonn Petty http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-stainless-kasumi-150mm-wa-petty/

I like the Gyuto as it seems to be well priced with good F+F and stainless clad blue steel seems ideal for maintenance and ease of sharpening. I have selected the Petty due to its versatile size, reputable sourcing, good reviews and as my smaller knife will see a lot of citrus I wanted stainless.

That leaves me with one slot for a last knife to choose to start my home cooking kit. I'm 100% open minded as I think between the Gyuto and Petty I've got 90% of my cooking needs covered. I'm probably looking for something in between 150-210mm to take care of some stuff the other knives wouldn't be best suited to. I was originally thinking a 165-180mm Santoku but I think it may be better to have a more specialised third knife rather than a general purpose knife (and the loathing of the Santoku around here scared me off if I'm honest:biggrin. i probably don't want to spend more than $300 otherwise I'll consider anything that would be a great third knife.

I'll also be needing some stones. I have no idea what would be best.

Thanks for the help so far. It's been very useful. I've got 2/3rds of my initial quiver down I think now thanks to KKF!

So - one more knife you say? - than have a look at the following ones:
- JKI 180 Kochi santoku (there is carbon clad and stainless clad version)
- Yoshikane SKD Hakata santoku (165 or 180) - hard to find today though
- Carter Kurouchi funayuki or wabocho (pricey but really awesome option - just check out his webpage just to enjoy)

If you will get some knife in 165 - 180 range, than it would mabe make more sense to go with 240 gyuto instead of 210, just my opinion.

Stones - check out the stones from JNS or JKI - I do not want to say that there are no other very good stones, but here you just pick according to your preferences (softer or harder, soaking or S&G) and get set of great stones that will last you many years. Unless your budget dictates oterwise, get 3 stones, flattening plate and some sort of holder and do not look back. It makes little sense to get 'starter stones' unless you are on a tight budget.

One word- Gesshin

find them at JKI

Personally I wouldn't add a santoku. It fills a role quite similar to the gyuto so you're really not adding much functionality.
For petty I'd go with 150 or 180; depends mostly on what you tend to use it for.

I think your next 'choice' should depend on what you'll be using it for. If you do a lot of in-hand work and/or peel with a knife, sure go ahead and get a 9/10 cm paring knife. But if you never do that and/or use a speed peeler all the time there's no reason to spend a lot of money here; you can just as well get a cheap Victorinox, Opinel or Robert Herder to fill this role.

If you take down a lot of chicken you could consider a honesuki, but for all practical purposes there isn't really a reason why you can't do that with your petty.
You could think of getting a slicer / sujihiki for meat work.
Or hey, if you eat any fancy bread with hard crusts, get a decent bread knife.

I think choosing the third knife is difficult because it becomes so much more specific to the user. While almost everyone agrees on getting a petty and a gyuto (or basically, a large and a smaller blade), it is hard to really add much functionality after that.
You could also consider putting the money into stones instead. You'd be far better off being able to keep these 2 knives sharp than adding a 3rd one that does almost the exact same as one of the other knives you have.

Buy a 270 "laser" gyuto and it can also function as a sujiiki, so theres two birds in one stone. A santoku is a waste of money, it is only used for chopping vegetables, and thats what you have your gyuto for. I keep three chefs knives in my rotation, one thin, one with a little more heft, and a lower-end knife that i use as my workhorse during service, one that i wont lose sleep over if it gets knocked off the counter. A bread knife you dont need to go "high-end" on , just find one thats sharp. As for paring knives, go down to your nearest home goods store and get yourself a 5 dollar pack of Zyliss, some even come with a birds beak and a serrated paring knife, theyre sharp and they get the job done.