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Matus

Matus

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Hi,

I am trying to improve on my efficiency and one of the tools I could really use is some sort of powered metal saw. There are obviously different possibilities - band saw, scroll saw, angle grinder or even Proxxon (supposed to be better than dremel) with grinding/cutting disc.

Obviously the cheapest solution would be an angle grinder, but I am not too crazy about the noise, dirt and sparks as my workshop is a rather confined place with plenty of fire-friendly material around. The Proxxon would be basically a miniaturized angle grinder, but could fine other use too - and it is also rather cheap. Band saw would probably be the best, but it seems that the ones that can actually cut steel are rather pricey and large - same goes for scroll saw. The last two options could be also used with handle making, what would be an advantage.

I am just wondering - what would be the best choice. I am not making any high volume, but after cutting 240mm gyuto out for 3mm thick D2 steel with a hack saw (took me about an hou) I am looking at less fitness oriented alternatives. On top of that - with large blades one must set the saw blade under an angle to the rest of the saw so that you can make a long cut - that makes the cutting really awkward.

I am located in Germany - so if you have some particular models in mind I would appreciate that. I would not mind buying a used equipment, but I need to be sure it is up to the task.

thanks :)

EDIT: The are also angle grinders that run on Li-Ion batteries that could get the job done - advantage would be, that I could do it somewhere outdoors without letting our neighbours suffer too much. Question - would the battery (18V, 3-5Ah) last long enough.
 
Yup you're looking at either the band saw like femi 780xl with a table available as addon. Which is sort of pricey, or angle grinder... If I where you, I'd probably make some space "angle grinder safe" and cut out a bunch at one time, then deal with the cleanup...
 
You can get a cheap bandsaw from most home improvement stores. $159 or so here in canada. The hard part is finding a blade that will fit with enough teeth per inch to cut the type and thickness of metal you want to cut.

It's often easy to find a blade with enough TPI, but rarely at the length you need to fit your cheaper bandsaw. The solution I to buy an oversized blade and have it resized at either a machine shop or sharpening shop. A blade can be cut, shortened then welded. I buy 64" blades at princess auto and have them resized down to 59.25" for $14 a piece. Very cheap and effective.
 
Thanks, but welding is unfortunately not something I can do (or have experience with). But I get your point - before buying a bandsaw, check whether suitable blades are available. Actually - how many teeth per inch should the blade have?
 
No I mean you can have the blades welded at most machine shops or if you're lucky the sharpening shop that serves those machine shops. Not do it yourself. If you live in an urban area these shops might not be near you but chances are they aren't far.

Generally you want 3 teeth in the material. So the thinner the material the higher the TPI. Generally.

Matus said:
Thanks, but welding is unfortunately not something I can do (or have experience with). But I get your point - before buying a bandsaw, check whether suitable blades are available. Actually - how many teeth per inch should the blade have?
Click to expand...
 
We're not as lucky in eu as being able to get a portaband for that kind of money. It's around 4-500 eur here for the things like Femi, so it's sort of an investment.
 
jessf said:
What about this?

https://www.bauhaus.info/bandsaegen/c/10000175
Click to expand...

The two cheaper ones are not up to the task (info from messerforum.net) of cutting steel and are meant for wood or soft metal. Proxxon actually makes a lot of interesting tools, but very most of them are aimed at modelling (car, planes, ships, etc) and not for heavy use - what is a pity as it seems that their tools are of decent quality.
 
But what about that accumulator powered angle grinder? If it would have enough power (I would not need it to cut more than 10-15 minutes in a row I guess) it could be a solution ... but cheap it is of course not - around 200€
 
I can't say from experience with the brand but if it's anything close to the cheap ryobi junk we have here it can do what you want, with the right blade. Cutting 1" thick steel might not be possible but I doubt that's what you're doing.

Matus said:
The two cheaper ones are not up to the task (info from messerforum.net) of cutting steel and are meant for wood or soft metal. Proxxon actually makes a lot of interesting tools, but very most of them are aimed at modelling (car, planes, ships, etc) and not for heavy use - what is a pity as it seems that their tools are of decent quality.
Click to expand...
 
I have dropped an email to Proxxon tech-rep (first only about the IBS/E) and they said it would manage, so I have also asked the question about their band saw and I am waiting for the answer.
 
Have you checked out plasma cutters? Those look cool in a Star Wars way. They do throw off sparks like crazy but I don't think you can beat it in speed. They cut through steel like a hot knife through butter, literally. They will need some serious current capability from the mains power and and an air supply I think. Check out some of the Eastwood plasma cutter videos on youtube.
 
My father worked for a company that builds those, so yeah, that could work, but I would have to make couple of thousands knives a day to make it economical :)
 
I'll be surprised if they say it can, only because it would be operating outside the parameters of the warranty and they'd like you to buy the more expensive model with the ready made steel cutting blades.


Matus said:
I have dropped an email to Proxxon tech-rep (first only about the IBS/E) and they said it would manage, so I have also asked the question about their band saw and I am waiting for the answer.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I can't tread German but if you buy a bandsaw make sure that it is for metal cutting (not wood) the speed range on wood cutting bandsaws is much too high for metal.
 
The Eastwood 40 amp model(on sale now for $499.99) costs less than a 240mm Gesshin Kagekiyo gyuto. Assuming you can get one to work in your location or can get an equivalent, after a couple knives you might start to think it was well worth the investment. If you have a template set up, it would probably take about 30 seconds to cut out a knife shape. Salivate on that.
 
WingKKF said:
The Eastwood 40 amp model(on sale now for $499.99) costs less than a 240mm Gesshin Kagekiyo gyuto. Assuming you can get one to work in your location or can get an equivalent, after a couple knives you might start to think it was well worth the investment. If you have a template set up, it would probably take about 30 seconds to cut out a knife shape. Salivate on that.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I though you were joking. The plasma cutting machine I had in in mind is this one:

TpB-f564-245430.jpg


Still - the tool you mention needs very hign currents I would not be able to provide and in that price category I would probably get a band saw, but it is interesting to know that such an option would exist.

Concerning the Proxxon - I am still waiting for answer, but as far as I know they do not make any more upscale machinery.

The die grinder - what would be the difference to angle grinder?
 
slitting disk in an angle grinder is the way to go for ease and speed. Cordless version should work fine if you're only doing a handful at a time
 
I read some more on a German knife forum - apparently the Proxxon band saw is no go for steel (no wonder though) as are most other band saws that are build for wood as those are simply too fast.

Currently it seems that the options are:
- angle grinder as 'quick, loud cheap & dirty' solution,
- metal band saw that can be set to vertical positionwith some add-on table as a 'not cheap but solid' solution
- Proxxon as a mini-disc-grinder 'cheap & slow' solution

The battery powered angle grinders apparently may not have enough torque for the job, but that would have to be tested.
 
I just got a reply from the Proxonn - the band saw 240/E is supposed to be able to manage knife steel with a suitable blade (28172 - HSS Bi-Metal). I am inclined to give it a try even though it will be surely slower than convetional steel band saw. Not only because it costs less, but also it is much small and space is something I do not have much of.
 
Good show. Read up on "speeds and feeds". Your feed rate will be a function of type and thickness of metal and the blade you're able to find for it. In the end heat is your enemy as it will shorten the tool life.

Matus said:
I just got a reply from the Proxonn - the band saw 240/E is supposed to be able to manage knife steel with a suitable blade (28172 - HSS Bi-Metal). I am inclined to give it a try even though it will be surely slower than convetional steel band saw. Not only because it costs less, but also it is much small and space is something I do not have much of.
Click to expand...
 
The apparent problem with the cheap vertical band saws is, that they are designed for wood and are thus way too fast to cut steel. I have googled more user experience with the proxxon band saw and while is it apparently a decent product, knife steel for stock (so thickness up to about 5mm or under 1/4") removal is probably pushing it too far. I am consider ordering it and getting a proper blade - in the worst case I would send it back and would only have the cost of the blade as that could not be returned then.

I an wondering whether I should not wait a little longer - if I get more serious with knifemaking I will have to rent some space for a workshop and then a decent metal band saw (about 500€) would not be a problem space wise (f I want to get more serious I will have to get a proper belt grinder and a heat treating kiln anyway - two costly items).

I may try to borrow an angle grinder from a friend and see whether that would be possible (noise & dust) - as that is the fastest and cheapest solution.

There is simply, yet again, no free lunch :)
 
The proxxon 240/E one you're looking at says in the product literature that it has a variable speed controller. I could see the speed chart on the unit in the bauhuas picture. Without knowing what the speeds are you'll have take a chance or do more research. It's important that you read up on "speeds and feeds" when it comes to cutting metal before buying any tool. Your concern with any tool will be heat gain and cutter degradation and finding an appropriate blade for the task. Generally, band saws with a fixed high rate of speed are for wood but for thinish steel with the right blade it can be done as I have done it.

Matus said:
The apparent problem with the cheap vertical band saws is, that they are designed for wood and are thus way too fast to cut steel. I have googled more user experience with the proxxon band saw and while is it apparently a decent product, knife steel for stock (so thickness up to about 5mm or under 1/4") removal is probably pushing it too far. I am consider ordering it and getting a proper blade - in the worst case I would send it back and would only have the cost of the blade as that could not be returned then.

I an wondering whether I should not wait a little longer - if I get more serious with knifemaking I will have to rent some space for a workshop and then a decent metal band saw (about 500€) would not be a problem space wise (f I want to get more serious I will have to get a proper belt grinder and a heat treating kiln anyway - two costly items).

I may try to borrow an angle grinder from a friend and see whether that would be possible (noise & dust) - as that is the fastest and cheapest solution.

There is simply, yet again, no free lunch :)
Click to expand...
 
Indeed :) For whatever reason I did not check out german ebay, there might be something useful there actually :)

It seems however that I might have found a place where I could try to cut blanks with angle grinder. I guess I will try that first before buying a metal band saw.
 
Excellent! Try to remember to wear a respirator if at all possible. ALL abrasives are harmful to lungs. I wish I'd worked a little smarter when I was young.
-Mark
 
Thanks, I actually use respirator with most of the work I am doing (sawing, sanding). I am trying to be carefull in general - the only time I take down the polycarbonate glasses is if I am just drawing a profile on steel or taking notes. I also try to wear working gloves most of the time - spare me dozens of small wounds that woudl otherwise hurt for days and also keep my hands from looking like trash.
 
I did mention the die grinder which is like an angle grinder (quick, messy and loud), but I'll put in another word for hand tools. No muss no fuss, just an hour of sawing for a cardio work out. If you are just going to be making an occasional knife as a hobby every few weeks or months, it is still something to consider. If you really want to cut significant amounts of steel in a short time, budget for and use a proper metal band saw. I don't think the proxxon as a sort of intermediate step between a hand saw and a powerful metal band saw will make you happy in the end. I have been getting into hobby wood working after making several knife handles and seem to have been bitten by the hand tool bug. I have the time, but not a lot of space for a workshop full of large stationary power tools. So going slowly with hand tools (and a drill press) has been a reasonable way to pursue the hobby. I have not progressed to cutting out knife blanks or purchasing a belt grinder, but may one of these days.
 
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