Medium grit natural stone - aoto?

Hello Kkf,

So I am here looking for some jnat advice. I am relatively new to jnats, but am trying to read voraciously about them to better understand their nature and myriad differences.

First a bit about my usage... I am a professional chef, so my knives get used consistently, however I have a large enough collection that I pretty much pick one or two for the day (specific tasks, fish, butchery, aside), and so rotate a lot, and try and touch up what I use weekly, if not daily. They are pretty much all carbon; whites, blues, 52100, Heiji iwasaki etc.

I use a naniwa superstone 5000 predominantly, and a 1000 Shapton pro if/when necessary. I also have recently acquired my first jnat, a nakayama tomae from Shinichi (kiita size, if this is just the term for a smaller offcut size stone?), which I am in the process of getting the feel for, but is too fine a stone I think for the kind of touch ups I need.

I am looking for a kind of replacement everyday stone, a natural that I can use in the place of the naniwa, to keep my knives at a sharp working level, and before the nakayama when I want to go further. So I think I need an aoto. They seem pretty popular around here, and most often cited as roughly 2-5000 relative synthetic grit. Can anyone recommend any others? And also sourcing - so far all I can find are on JNS, Japan tools, and from Shinichi again (and only Shinichi has anything in stock currently).

Sorry to ramble! Thanks in advance , I am grateful for any advice!
Jacob

Aoto are good, also check out Ikarashi at JNS.

Hi Jacob, if you like harder jnats, but still good for knife usage, i would recommend a green aoto; otherwise a Hakka or a Takashima. My favorite jnat i use as a finisher is an Ohira, although it feels finer than a 5000 grit synth. Good luck in your search and let us know when you find something you like!

Someone else has also recommended a Takashima, saying aoto often used just for blade finish, whereas I definitely am looking for a stone for working edge maintenance. Appreciate your help!

I am not the most experienced person when it comes to natural stones, but one thing to count on is that no natural stone is going to be as fast as a synthetic stone (in comparable grit). I am not sure I would want to touch-up my knives only on natural stone - that could simply be too slow IMO. If you only want to use natural stones to touch up the edge I would tend to add a medium grit stone before I would go to aoto.

I have compared side-by-side a few natural stones (red Aoto, Hakka, Hideriyama) with Gesshin Sythetic Natural stone and there is no comparison speed-wise. And there are even faster synthetic stones in that range (Gesshin 4000 would be a top tier)

Girt-wise nice Aoto (you should only get one from a reputable source as many aotos out there are in the 800 - 2000 range and that is not what you are looking for) would be spot on for an edge with some bite. Also - Aoto will allow you for a really nice kasumi finish.

About the best source for natural stones (at least for those of us who do not speak Japanese) is Maxim from JNS - he has a few really nice big blue aotos at the moment - but the price does reflect those properties (big and nice). Many of us are tempted

Both Hakka and Takashima will leave finer edge than the Aoto. It all depends on how much bite you want to get. From my little experience aoto (red one) gave me about the best blade action on tomato skin, while not feeling too rough on other items.

Tempted by an Ikarashi from Maksim, and a Takashima from aframes as seems to be the only place available...

All in the name of wanting to try more naturals :biggrin:

I have a red aoto, Takashima suita, and hideriyama all from maxim. The red aoto is a medium stone, and will raise a burr on my knives, and while muddy is much coarser grit than the other two, which are both softer and finer. Takashima and Hideriyama are very muddy, especially the Takashima and I use them as a final polisher, but they are more like a 4-6k stone and the finish is hazy not mirror. Both are buttery smooth and I love using them. The aoto is much more aggressive. i would ask maxim, he knows his stones well, and will recommend one that fits your needs. Good luck.

The Takashimas from Aframes I think are from a deeper strata than the much loved softer stones that Jon used to sell. More of a finisher. Monzento would be good too, as woul Aizu.

Ikarashi is too coarse as a finisher for gyuto, but great for petty, suji, and any stainless knives.
Your best bet is to talk with our resident jnat expert asteger. Send him a pm.

Will do. Have a much better idea of what I want now, thanks again guys

Jacob_x said:

Hello Kkf,

So I am here looking for some jnat advice. I am relatively new to jnats, but am trying to read voraciously about them to better understand their nature and myriad differences.

Jacob

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Please let me know what are your documentation source (in English not in Japanise )

Hi Jacob - Lots of good comments. Agreed that Ikarashi would be a bit too coarse for gyuto finishing. Usual Takashima and Hakka could be similar in fineness to your 5K Naniwa, if that's what you want, but might also run a bit beyond that. Interesting comment from Badgertooth about Takashima from Aframes, but I'm not sure; there will certainly be different Takashima out there. JNS 'red aoto' is a good intro stone if you like, say, about 2k and muddiness, but I don't think it's a practical stone to keep at work (dishing, messy, maybe not that fast). Aoto are unpredictable but you could luck out.

I'm happy at less than 5k, but if you like that or finer maybe you could try your luck with an Ohira suita? If you are less concerned with speed then different non-suita stones from Shobu and Ohira or other 'finisher' mines could work.

Yeah, my comment is prefaced by the Takashima I own which I'd gauge at a solid 8/10 for both hardness and refinement. A lovely stone but not at all the upper mid grit or lower finisher I was expecting. It's an out and out finisher. Aframes specifically denotes his as "hard type" and rates them as 8.3 fineness.

All great insight, much appreciated. Funnily enough as I gain more insight I seem to be moving towards not being so specific in what I want, and just wanting to try a large variety of stones and see whats good and what fits. I fear this may well lead to whole host of unaffordable purchases... Pretty sure I can kid myself that it technically doesn't fall under new 'knife' purchases right? :whistling:

It's actually a good approach. You can't really get 2 or 3 stones and really feel like you know much more than before. I don't mean this to sound exaggerated or full of it, but it's a bit like if you just try a couple of cheeses or wines and then hope to know all about those things based on that. So, it's a good approach so long as you try out good stuff and can honestly sell on things that don't suit you if not. Actually, the better thing would be if you could connect with others who have stones too, and get together and try stuff out and get a better feel for things and what you might like.

No that sounds a very considered approach. And from what I gather the analogy can be extended - one can get good and bad examples of grape varieties, as well as different stones, so it's good to try as many good examples as possible.

Most natural stones are very individualistic and will have slightly different behaviors from one stone to the next from the same source. The Tsushima stones as well as the Chinese naturals (that look like slate to me) are more uniform than the bedded cherts from Japan.

On top of that, different steels and/or different knives (with different heat treatment) will also behave a little differently on any given stone, and this is more obvious with natural stones.

So you really have to try them and see what fits, sort of like custom tailored clothing. This is one reason Japanese naturals from knowledgeable sellers are so expensive, they usually have tried them out and want to get a lot of information from you about your skills, the knives you have, and what you expect from the stone so they can match a stone to your needs. Very time consuming, not at all like just shipping a box with whatever stone you ask for off the shelf like they handle manufactured stones.

It's really best to try them in person with the knives you intend to use them on. Sadly for most of us, this isn't really possible, so we have to use the other method, which is to buy stones and use them, and sell them on or return them if they don't suit up. When selling on, you can provide the next owner with more data about how the stone works.

Peter

Update:
Have bought an Ikarashi, and a jki Takashima. The ikarashi I think I will sell very shortly, I just haven't had the call for such a low grit stone very often, and haven't even gotten round to flattening it properly, only a smaller banked face to have a ten minute play with to see how it feels. The Takashima however I really like, it is very quick, more than I was expecting for a natural, and leaves a very nice toothy edge ony shig and Watanabe, perfect for pro kitchen use. And it's very enjoyable to use, lovely feedback!
Oh and I have a marua-yama in the post from Shinichi also, which I'll report back on soon.

Thanks very much for all your advice, it's all been much considered and appreciated, as well as to the wider forum for all the invaluable information contained here!

Jacob_x said:

Update:
Have bought an Ikarashi, and a jki Takashima. The ikarashi I think I will sell very shortly, I just haven't had the call for such a low grit stone very often, and haven't even gotten round to flattening it properly, only a smaller banked face to have a ten minute play with to see how it feels. The Takashima however I really like, it is very quick, more than I was expecting for a natural, and leaves a very nice toothy edge ony shig and Watanabe, perfect for pro kitchen use. And it's very enjoyable to use, lovely feedback!
Oh and I have a marua-yama in the post from Shinichi also, which I'll report back on soon.

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I got my maruoyama from Shinichi and I really, really love it. Easy peezy to work with and leaves a really lovely edge. Let us know your thoughts when it arrives