Carter Cutlery *second* meaning?

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LucasFur

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Hey guys,
I was online today looking at carters. and i keep seeing *second* on his newly listed knives. and they are stamped "Carter 2" - did some research with no avail. Does anybody know what the *second* means?
-Lucas
 
It means that they are what he considers his second quality work for some reason or another. They are also discounted compared to one of his regular knives. Hope that helps.
 
I called previously (ended up not buying though), and the guy on the phone said that most guys in the shop can't even detect the flaw, and Murray has to point them out to you.
 
Sounds encouraging. NOT

Yeah, it almost sounds like a marketing ploy. I pressed him for answers about a particular knife though and he explained what was wrong with a batch, but I don't really remember anymore what he said. Something that was fixed, but Murray wasn't happy enough with the fix to sell them as regulars...
 
For what its worth, I got a Muteki about a year ago, was told from the first batch, its #9. After a few light thinning sessions over a few months, the knife really came to life. My is: 171mm, 40mm heel, 2.2mm spine at handle and has a more traditional gyuto profile, weight is 144g. If you look at the Muteki line, the shapes and sizes are all over the place and Murray recently changed the handle.

I'll be honest, I really like this knife now. Its a stiff, scrappy little guy but with some blade-forward weight that can be tossed about without worry. Plays well with my small cutting board too. I've actually been after a ~190mm in similar shape, but the ones he's making now are all too thin and light.
 
Yeah, it almost sounds like a marketing ploy. I pressed him for answers about a particular knife though and he explained what was wrong with a batch, but I don't really remember anymore what he said. Something that was fixed, but Murray wasn't happy enough with the fix to sell them as regulars...
Marketing ploy? If you don't trust a shop to be honest with you (especially when they're already admitting a defect), how can you trust them when buying a full-priced item? Either it's a good shop that won't screw you over, or its not. Why buy anything from someone you don't trust?
For me, it would depend it it were a cosmetic or functional issue. Assuming it's just cosmetic, and the knife still performs wonderfully, I'd have no problem with getting a quality knife with a price drop. Maybe I'm not into knives as works of art, like many of y'all are.
Form follows function.
 
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Marketing ploy? If you don't trust a shop to be honest with you (especially when they're already admitting a defect), how can you trust them when buying a full-priced item? Either it's a good shop that won't screw you over, or its not. Why buy anything from someone you don't trust?
For me, it would depend it it were a cosmetic or functional issue. Assuming it's just cosmetic, and the knife still performs wonderfully, I'd have no problem with getting a quality knife with a price drop. Maybe I'm not into knives as works of art, like many of y'all are.
Form follows function.

I was just referring to the guy on the phone how he made it a point to say that "only" Murray was able to detect the flaw... It felt to me a bit like putting Murray on a pedestal (I know he's great, mind you!) ... Even though most people say that the guy making his Mutekis is a great knifemaker who could make it on its own. I want to believe that he would/should be able to detect a flaw that makes the knife a "second". Or Murray has incredibly high standards...
 
I was just referring to the guy on the phone how he made it a point to say that "only" Murray was able to detect the flaw... It felt to me a bit like putting Murray on a pedestal (I know he's great, mind you!) ... Even though most people say that the guy making his Mutekis is a great knifemaker who could make it on its own. I want to believe that he would/should be able to detect a flaw that makes the knife a "second". Or Murray has incredibly high standards...

I understand what you're saying. In this context, one might guess the clerk's explanation is hyperbole. Perhaps we could assume that 99% of people couldn't find the flaw, which, if the person with whom you spoke is more of a retail person instead of a knife person, would equal anyone but Carter himself. From my limited knowledge, I can't imagine a true craftsman letting anything out of their shop that is actually fundamentally flawed. I would be happy to receive a Murray cater knife in which I couldn't find a flaw, but I also completely understand if you want a first quality item.
 
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I understand what you're saying. In this context, one might guess the clerk's explanation is hyperbole. Perhaps we could assume that 99% of people couldn't find the flaw, which, if the person with whom you spoke is more of a retail person instead of a knife person, would equal anyone but Carter himself. From my limited knowledge, I can't imagine a true craftsman letting anything out of their shop that is actually fundamentally flawed. I would be happy to receive a Murray cater knife in which I couldn't find a flaw, but I also completely understand if you want a first quality item.

No, it is not fundamentally flawed at all, and I was very close to pulling the trigger...
 
For what its worth, I got a Muteki about a year ago, was told from the first batch, its #9. After a few light thinning sessions over a few months, the knife really came to life. My is: 171mm, 40mm heel, 2.2mm spine at handle and has a more traditional gyuto profile, weight is 144g. If you look at the Muteki line, the shapes and sizes are all over the place and Murray recently changed the handle.

I'll be honest, I really like this knife now. Its a stiff, scrappy little guy but with some blade-forward weight that can be tossed about without worry. Plays well with my small cutting board too. I've actually been after a ~190mm in similar shape, but the ones he's making now are all too thin and light.

I wanted to build on Mucho Bocho's comment. I own 4 knives from Carter Cutlery (you can find them in my profile) and have sent a number of knives for him to check, fix and sharpen with impeccable results. I have not had direct contact with Murray (he is shielded by his work schedule and loyal staff), I can speak about the quality and trustworthiness of him and his staff in my dealings with them and at times they have gone out of their way to accommodate my requests. Two of the knives are among the ones I use more often, almost every day since I reach for them almost by default, a kurouchi Nakiri and a Muteki gyuto. I love them. Regarding their trustworthiness, I can give an example in my experience. When I bought the Shiro yanagiba I specified a particular one from the online catalog. Before knives are shipped out, it seems that Murray checks them one more time. The price of the yanagiba was upwards from $900 and before shipping it out one of his staff sent me an email to tell me that Murray was examining the blade before shipping it out and found a fault in it, so he replaced the knife for another one that was equivalent and met his standard, and that is the one I received. The one that did not pass the standard was put back for sale at a discounted price. I am sure I would have not found any difference between them or be able to see the fault he found, however I was very impressed and grateful that I was given that quality control and respect as a customer.
For what is worth, since it is only a posting from someone you do not know, besides the fact that I love all the knives coming from his shop, and although I have not had any direct dealings with him, he and his staff have earned my loyalty and trust as a customer.
 
Marketing ploy? If you don't trust a shop to be honest with you (especially when they're already admitting a defect), how can you trust them when buying a full-priced item? Either it's a good shop that won't screw you over, or its not. Why buy anything from someone you don't trust?
For me, it would depend it it were a cosmetic or functional issue. Assuming it's just cosmetic, and the knife still performs wonderfully, I'd have no problem with getting a quality knife with a price drop. Maybe I'm not into knives as works of art, like many of y'all are.
Form follows function.
FWIW, Carter is not known for cosmetic knives. You typically buy a Carter because performance is first and foremost. Handles are more of an afterthought.
 
So how about in the second hand market, how does one ensure your buying a first hand carter? I bought a used Muteki, admittedly a really fantastic price.
And I there was a flaw even though it was advertised as barely used, Never-sharpened, all which i believe because the bevels are almost perfect, and there was only the slightest amount of patina on the blade and the belt grind marks are still perfect from factory. -- No idea if mine is a *second* - plus im going to see Jude this weekend at Tosho to see if we can make this work.

and does anybody know if he discounts them proportional to how flawed they are?
 
I was wondering about this a couple of weeks ago and emailed Carter. Here is what I got as a response:

"A couple of the knives in the most recent batch of High Grades have a slight twist in the blade that Murray was unable to fully remove, so he asked us to list those knives as seconds and adjust the prices to reflect that.

You can rest assured that the knife is still of the highest quality. Buy it in full confidence that it will provide the best cutting performance on the market and still qualifies for all of Murray Carter's guarantees."
 
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