picking your collective brain - sexy, useful nakiris

hey guys and gals!

i'm a 6'4 canadian man who's having some trouble deciding on what nakiri/usuba to buy. let me first give you a preamble; i'm not a knife specialist... my knowledge only goes so far as classical french/western designs. Within the last year though... i've been exposed to some highly functional but ugly Japanese style vegetable knives. right now my favorite knife in my kit is some weird thai off brand 'kiwi' knife that i got in chinatown on a whim. It's not strong or durable but damn does it ever fit with my hand and chop and slice like a demon.

Recently, i've accepted a position as a private chef to a family wealthy enough to rent a human (which is ridiculous in its own) so i want to have kit that fits more within the environment i'll be working in. i'm not a small guy so most of the knives ive been finding online are around 5.5"-6.5" which seem a bit small for me....

I've looked at shuns but their reputation seems to be more aesthetic than quality in the reading ive done and they seem to be on the small side.

What i'd like to know is given the information above, can you recommend me a veg knife that's both visually appealing and functional? i need to be able to do everything from fine dining to casual lunches with it. I have a plethora of other functional knives but i want this to be my flagship of sorts.

Ideally i'd like to buy from a canadian distributor but that may be a pipe dream lol. budget is decent, maybe up to 300-500, can be carbon or stainless.

thanks in advance

I've been eyeing the Watanabe Pro nakiri. It's 180mm (about 7"). There is also a 210mm nakiri for sell on the BST board.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/27667-YOSIHIDE-KUROUCHI-NAKIRI-210MM-(Shigefusa-Youngest-son)

Hi, the Watanabe pro nakiri, as said before, is a great option, and has stainless cladding: http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/pro/nakkiri.htm
If you would like something bigger, there is the Toyama Noborikoi Kasumi from JNS http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/toyama-noborikoi-kasumi-nakiri-210mm/
Also from JNS there is the Itinomonn nakiri, but that one is much lighter than the previous ones and is not as high heeled.

Good luck in your search!

Kurosaki Megumi Nakiri. I have one. It is a fantastic knife. First it is a super sexy knife. In term of performance, it is a killer. Extreme thin being the edge but still very robust. The steel is VG10 (so stainless), clad in stainless damascus. The hammer finish, the damascuss, the chisel kanji, rounded spine etc. F&F is just perfect. nothing to add. The handle is very good also.

Watanabe 180mm Nakiri. The boss. Just north of 200 USD, putting a nice 3rd party handle on it will push it to 350.

Pls note that the Nakiri and Usuba are not different variants of the same knife nor are they interchangeable. If you don't know you need a Usuba you probably don't.

Another vote for the Watanabe. I recently got mine, and it has been the knife I reach for most since then. I just love it. Will get new Stefan Keller handle some time soon...

Okay, I'll pile on too.

I recently received my Watanabe and it's wonderful. His shipping from Japan is extremely fast too. It was five days from when he shipped it to when I received it in rural central Oregon - that included the memorial day holiday.

Def recommend at least 180, I had a 165 and it was a tad too small for my liking. I'm also in Canada and have ordered from both Maksim at JNS and Watanabe, I can recommend both without reservation

Edit- I just recently got a 180 nakiri from JNS… Yoshiaki Fujiwara 180mm Kurouchi Nakiri 馬車馬 (aka Kato workhorse nakiri)


Very rare so it is unlikely they'll be available again for some time, but the other suggestions sound good too

Everyone has their own tastes but I found the 180 Kato to be too narrow compared to most nakiri. It is one of those knives that ended up in a box with a bunch of other knives that seemed like a good idea at the time. A 180 Shig. has been my go too nakiri for sometime. Chopped up a bunch of coriander root and lemon grass with it making a curry paste just yesterday.

If you really wanted a longer nakiri from Watanabe, you could likely ask him to make it to your length. One advantage of the 180 is that is generally the longest that he makes and uses the stainless cladding, making them pretty low maintenance. I have one of his 150 petties, and it's a nice I really like. There is consistent love for his nakiri around here.

Tosho has some 180's a cool powdered stainless damascus one and a 180mm mirror polished konosuke one. Finejapaneseknives doesnt have any nakiris i like but they do have bunkas. Saji san has a rainbow damascus one for about $500 cad or a shibata kotetsu 180 for 300 ish. Knifewear sells masakage kumo which are massive beautiful 165mm nakiris, along with takedas and a mega nakiri by moritaka(its a house line significantly better than the as line.) or a fujiwara mabaroshi(stunning blade just a little too pricey imho)Tanners sugestion is good, maxim will get it her in a week or so, id go toyama 180. Another option is a small sujimoto #30 style cleaver, 190mm long 85mm tall. Prep beast very very affordable http://www.knivesandstones.com/sugimoto-chuka-chinese-cleaver-cm4030-stainless-small-chkua/ and James will get it here in 7-10 days normally from australlia. If you go with watanabe i would pm hattorichop and ask if hed toss a handle on it, just to upgrade it slightly. Other rehandlers in canada are mokuzo and sharp and shiny shop. One last option would be to post a want to buy in bst and see what comes up. I scored a fujiwara 165 with custom handle for $175 its about $400 for just the knife. Really amazing blade btw.

daveb said:

Watanabe 180mm Nakiri. The boss. Just north of 200 USD, putting a nice 3rd party handle on it will push it to 350.

Pls note that the Nakiri and Usuba are not different variants of the same knife nor are they interchangeable. If you don't know you need a Usuba you probably don't.

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ive been having a lot of trouble differentiating between the two, other than the chisel grind pretty much everything i can find about them seems to indicate they're for similar work? i've never used a handed knife so i'm pretty curious as to how they feel and im okay going blind into the purchase so long as there is enough of a consensus that they work well. i like the nakiri a lot for how well it can draw cut, is it different on a usuba?

Also thanks to everyone for your input. i think the watanabe may be the way to go. i really like the look of it and from your suggestions it seems like it can get to work well too!

thanks again guys!

If I had 500 to spend on an usuba and had enough experience taking charge of an expensive one ... I'd likely want to save up a bit more, getting near honyaki territory here.

http://www.tanebocho.com/which-to-buy-nakiri-or-usuba/

Usuba is more specialized and delicate although it is heavier
From advice I have seen a Usuba is not a knife to skimp on price

Note: I own a Watanabe Pro and a Yoshikane Nakiri, very satified with both. Never owned a Usuba so just passing on info I looked at before buying

Glen

GLE1952 said:

http://www.tanebocho.com/which-to-buy-nakiri-or-usuba/

Usuba is more specialized and delicate although it is heavier
From advice I have seen a Usuba is not a knife to skimp on price


Glen

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ah now it makes more sense after reading the comparison in the link you provided. i think i will grab one in the future (pretty sure i can write it off as a trade tool) but for now ill stick with the nakiri. I really didn't like japanese knives when i started cooking but in the last few years they've really started to grow on me. by the end of the year they'll be half my kit lol.

Oh and i did have another question... my butchery scimitar took a bit of a beating and im looking to replace it. all the regular brands are 'ok' but if anyone knows a manufacturer that makes them with something other than a poly handle id love to hear it.

A friend re-handled a Vnox for me. I think there was drinking involved.....




If you want a "nice" scimitar then consider a custom.

daveb said:

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The handle is certainly unique, but I'm having trouble even keeping my focus on them because my eyes keep refocussing on that MEAT! :hungry3:

theculinarymercenary said:

ah now it makes more sense after reading the comparison in the link you provided. i think i will grab one in the future (pretty sure i can write it off as a trade tool) but for now ill stick with the nakiri. I really didn't like japanese knives when i started cooking but in the last few years they've really started to grow on me. by the end of the year they'll be half my kit lol.

Oh and i did have another question... my butchery scimitar took a bit of a beating and im looking to replace it. all the regular brands are 'ok' but if anyone knows a manufacturer that makes them with something other than a poly handle id love to hear it.

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If you do some digging on ebay, you can usually find a vintage scimi that will beat the pants off most new school ones. Unless you're going custom of course. But be prepared for a long wait, and a hefty price tag.

GLE1952 said:

http://www.tanebocho.com/which-to-buy-nakiri-or-usuba/

Usuba is more specialized and delicate although it is heavier
From advice I have seen a Usuba is not a knife to skimp on price

Note: I own a Watanabe Pro and a Yoshikane Nakiri, very satified with both. Never owned a Usuba so just passing on info I looked at before buying

Glen

Click to expand...

I wish I knew how to use a usuba. They're so pretty...

@Noodle Soup Mortar prep?Did you subject the edge to chili (whether deseeded and ninjaing you with some stray seeds, or seeds and all ... always wary to use a good knife because of the seeds) and pulling lime zest (kaffir or not kaffir, that will test your patina) too?

Hey Life, was that a question for me? Not sure about the deseeding part of the post. I have a Kaffir lime tree but none of the fruit ever make it to useable size. Plenty of leaves for my Thai cooking though.

In the end, I was interested what knife you used to make the other 5+ ingredients mortar ready, since you mentioned only those two and I was assuming you were doing a complete thai paste

Nothing too fancy. garlic, lemon grass, dried peppers, kaffir lime leaves, coriander root, ginger, turmeric, salt and white pepper.

I was using this earlier today. Two words: prep beast :viking:

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/toyama-noborikoi-kasumi-nakiri-210mm/

It's sized right for your height, too :thumbsup:

I like that one! Looks like a nice size between the average nakiri and Chinese cleaver.

BTW, I nearly overread the fact that the frame of reference for the thread opener is the Kiwi nakiri.

Having both the Kiwi and a japanese Nakiri, let's see what will be different.

The thai knife we are talking about is quite a reinterpretation of a nakiri - slightly below 1mm SPINE thickness, and completely flat (not flat ground. flat as a ruler) behind the hollow-ground (hell-to-thin) bevel behind a simple 14 dps* bevel, all on perfectly normal knife steel (conjectured to be 420B or similar) that will obviously support 14dps as a slicing edge but certainly not for an impact-y application like a nakiri.

You will get a heavier knife that will hold its edge far better, and which will probably have less drag than the Kiwi**, although the spine of the japanese knife will be far thicker. Food release will be both worse and better, depending on exact scenario (kiwis have a rather split-happy albeit very thin geometry, and very polished sides; usually the food will either be bent away or glide off the polished finish - WHEN these mechanisms fail, stuff will stick like hell).

Having a nakiri and my (cheap) usuba to compare... for some reason, the usuba feels closer to the kiwi nakiri. Can't quite put my finger on the why.
Something about how thick (or not) the knives feel when handling them...

*measured on a similar knife of same maker.

**comes with the mostly dead flat blade I guess. Eg when parallel cutting ... either very little resistance or... a behaviour more like a caliper brake than a wedge.

LifeByA1000Cuts said:

BTW, I nearly overread the fact that the frame of reference for the thread opener is the Kiwi nakiri.

Having both the Kiwi and a japanese Nakiri, let's see what will be different.

The thai knife we are talking about is quite a reinterpretation of a nakiri - slightly below 1mm SPINE thickness, and completely flat (not flat ground. flat as a ruler) behind the hollow-ground (hell-to-thin) bevel behind a simple 14 dps* bevel, all on perfectly normal knife steel (conjectured to be 420B or similar) that will obviously support 14dps as a slicing edge but certainly not for an impact-y application like a nakiri.

You will get a heavier knife that will hold its edge far better, and which will probably have less drag than the Kiwi**, although the spine of the japanese knife will be far thicker. Food release will be both worse and better, depending on exact scenario (kiwis have a rather split-happy albeit very thin geometry, and very polished sides; usually the food will either be bent away or glide off the polished finish - WHEN these mechanisms fail, stuff will stick like hell).

Having a nakiri and my (cheap) usuba to compare... for some reason, the usuba feels closer to the kiwi nakiri. Can't quite put my finger on the why.
Something about how thick (or not) the knives feel when handling them...

*measured on a similar knife of same maker.

**comes with the mostly dead flat blade I guess. Eg when parallel cutting ... either very little resistance or... a behaviour more like a caliper brake than a wedge.

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this was an EXCELLENT response as i've had a chance to use a yoshihiro nakiri (which was a little small but still usable) in the meantime and you're spot on about handling. i like both profiles and am thinking perhaps now after reading your comments that a usuba may be a good thing to add to my collection as well as the watanabe im ordering. they did perform quite differently (the cheap kiwi and the yoshi). i found i enjoyed the drag and push cuts with the yoshi more and really enjoyed chopping with the kiwi despite it getting pretty bent up quickly (ive been using these for maybe a year now as universal knives and have gone through about 4? there so cheap here they aren't even worth trying to fix :S ). thanks for the informed comment!

theculinarymercenary said:

this was an EXCELLENT response as i've had a chance to use a yoshihiro nakiri (which was a little small but still usable) in the meantime and you're spot on about handling. i like both profiles and am thinking perhaps now after reading your comments that a usuba may be a good thing to add to my collection as well as the watanabe im ordering. they did perform quite differently (the cheap kiwi and the yoshi). i found i enjoyed the drag and push cuts with the yoshi more and really enjoyed chopping with the kiwi despite it getting pretty bent up quickly (ive been using these for maybe a year now as universal knives and have gone through about 4? there so cheap here they aren't even worth trying to fix :S ). thanks for the informed comment!

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Usuba is a very specialized knife in comparison to a nakiri. They're not really comparable at all beyond the fact that neither have an aggressive, 'pointy' tip. Usuba are single bevel, and require a refined technique both in terms of use and sharpening. Which isn't to say you shouldn't take it upon yourself to explore that side of things. I just caution you to not mistake it for being a variation on the nakiri.

Yep, going through the entry level usuba experience right now You'll be stuck with no left arm hair and a dirty workbench full of rags, whetstone slurry and paper for quite a time because you'll always be trying to fix something on the damn usuba...

BTW very thin and smooth knives like the kiwis tend to teach you a habit that is somewhat problematic with sturdier knives (even worse with european ones hehe, so it sets you on the right track in the end): You hold both sides of something to be cut, *from the sides*, basically clamping the knife, far too often. Kind of a tunnel death grip. And you get used to being able to see very straight down the blade to the edge when positioning.

thank you. im getting the sense that they are very different but no worries, knives are not a new thing to me. japanese knives are somewhat new to me but i am quite good with any kind of blade. i'm a professional chef that's working for a single family now and i've finally got the income to explore my options when it comes to my trade . lifebya1000cuts made a very good comparison to something im familiar with and from that i think it's worth giving a try. if it doesn't work out... meh at least it'll be a conversation piece

BTW very thin and smooth knives like the kiwis tend to teach you a habit that is somewhat problematic with sturdier knives (even worse with european ones hehe, so it sets you on the right track in the end): You hold both sides of something to be cut, *from the sides*, basically clamping the knife, far too often. Kind of a tunnel death grip. And you get used to being able to see very straight down the blade to the edge when positioning.

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no worries my friend, i've been well trained and have plenty of experience holding all kinds of big ass european knives lol. my claw game is strong ;D