which workhorse??

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Ishmael

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Longtime lurker here, finally looking to upgrade my erryday workhorse

LOCATION
Norway, but I have friends in Tokyo who visits me at regular intervals.


KNIFE TYPE
Chef's knife/guyoto, 240mm without too much belly (so more of a french/japanese profile)

I'm right handed

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Doesn't matter

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
240mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
no

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
600$

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Anything but cutting down poultry and filleting fish. I.e. anything that I'm not using my deba or honesuki for.

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Masahiro 210 moly

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Pinch

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Push-cut, slice

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)
I like a good looking knife. BUT looks in this case, looks are probably the lowest priority. Performance is paramount

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
I like a litte bit of heft to my knife, but I think anything from 170 grams and upwards would be absolutely fine, rounded spine/choil is nice, but not necessary.

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
This is what I want:
A knife with as little wedging as possible (at least nearer the tip) with as good food release properties as possible. At the same time, toughness is more important to me than edge retention. Still, the ability to take a very sharp edge is important too.

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
Daily honing/stropping is no problem. Sharpening as needed, but once or twice a month is not to muc.h


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Yes

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes, I get a fairly good edge using the combination (300), 1000 and 3000 grit stones and finishing with a fine japanese natural stone.

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
always improving

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
yes



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
To sum up, with numbers indicating level of piority (low number equalling high priority)
0. Sharpness (not necessarily OOTB, but potential)
1. Wedging and food release
2. Toughness (i.e. resistance to chipping)
4. Edge retention (hardness)
10. Looks

Now I understand that toughness and edge retention are opposites to some degree. I am not particularily brutal with my knives, and I am not going to use it to cut any frozen things or bones or use a glass cutting board or any of the other no-nos. But I don't want to worry every time I take it out either and although I have a big af knife to use for large pumpkins/cabbages I'd want my workhorse to be able to cut medium cabbages and swedes too.


What do you think? Am I being entirely unreasonable here? Are there any compromises?
 
240 Toyama.
And with with the change from $600, I'd buy a 270.
 
The Munetoshi at JNS is supposed to be great!
Quote: "awesome knife, best J knife I have purchased for years in my opinion out performs both Shigefusa and Kato, at this price point an absolute bargain, highly recommend this knife"
I might be way under your budget, though. :)
 
There are many workhorse knives worth trying out there: Kato, Watanabe, Toyama, Kochi, Gengetsu, Heiji, Munetoshi, and many others. If you do not have a load of experience and do not quite know what you are looking for in terms of profile and grind, than it would make sense to get one in sub $300 range (e.g. Kochi, Munetoshi, etc.), use it for a while and see how it works for you. based on my experience with Kochi Santoku I would say Kochi migaki (has blue #2 core, so will have good edge holding) would be a good start.

I am just about to receive my Munetoshi, but I do not expect it to be as thin as Kochi (behinid the edge).
 
240 Toyama.
And with with the change from $600, I'd buy a 270.

+1

Toyama is the best all around gyuto I've ever laid hands on. And I've laid hands on quite a few. I just ordered a 240 to go along with my 270, and another 270 to gift to my sous. Combined they cost less than a honyaki I just played with, and cut better as well. One of the best deals out there right now IMO.
 
I would recommend Xerxes Knives series (German knife maker), Userfriendly with HK (hollow ground on one side for foodrelease) in 1.2442 or SC125 Steel. Outperforms at least Kato within miles, and most of the knives i ever tryed.

greets Sebastian.
 
If you have friends in Japan, i would get a 210mm or 240mm Watanabe pro. Easy to sharpen, cuts very well. Just keep in mind that the 240mm Watanabe feels bigger than most 240's.
 
Wow, thanks! It seems to be many recommendations here corresponding more or less exactly to what I'm looking for! Especially Munetoshi and Toyama is interesting. Not necessarily because I think they are better than the others (I wouldn't know!:)), but since JNS is based in Denmark AND deducts local taxes, the shipment will be fast in addition to me not being doubly taxed (since norway is not in the EU).

Brainsausage - I saw in another thread that you found the Munetoshi to wedge more than the Toyama, do you think that was because of geometry/grind or do you think it had something to do with the Toyama being 270mm while the Munetoshi was 210? (This might very well be a stupid question, and if so I'm sorry!)

Matus - Did you just recieve a 240mm Munetoshi? Would you be so kind as to let me know what you think of it w.r.t. thinness behind the edge and its cutting prowess?

Thanks for all the tips folks!
 
I have indeed just received the Munetoshi. The knife has an interesting grind (forged profile) that I will talk about more once the knife will see some proper use. I have measured thickness 10 mm behind the edge and it goes from 1.6 mm at the heel to 1.2 mm close to the tip. This puts it indeed to workhorse range - these values are very similar to Kato Workhorse (I am not saying that the grind is similar). I will see based on the performacne whether I will thin the grind or not. The knife does not have very strong distal taper in the 2nd half of the blade and together with a lightweight handle it has strong front-forward mass distribution which I like. The center of mass is about 4 cm in front of the heel. The weiht is 204 g, length on edge 242 mm and height at the heel 50 mm.
 
Wow, I just looked at this one. Thick does not mean wedge, so interested in performance and how much tweaking you feel is needed. The 240 is out of stock.
 
Wow, thanks! It seems to be many recommendations here corresponding more or less exactly to what I'm looking for! Especially Munetoshi and Toyama is interesting. Not necessarily because I think they are better than the others (I wouldn't know!:)), but since JNS is based in Denmark AND deducts local taxes, the shipment will be fast in addition to me not being doubly taxed (since norway is not in the EU).

Brainsausage - I saw in another thread that you found the Munetoshi to wedge more than the Toyama, do you think that was because of geometry/grind or do you think it had something to do with the Toyama being 270mm while the Munetoshi was 210? (This might very well be a stupid question, and if so I'm sorry!)

Matus - Did you just recieve a 240mm Munetoshi? Would you be so kind as to let me know what you think of it w.r.t. thinness behind the edge and its cutting prowess?

Thanks for all the tips folks!

Definitely the grind.
 
Has anyone tried both the Toyama and Watanabe, the Sujis I have from each maker look pretty close and the gyutos look similar based on the pics I've seen here.

Panda and I were talking about this when we were hanging out last week, and we both said almost in unison that Toyama's work is essentially a more refined and 'mature' version of Watanabe's.
 
Right now there's a toyama, heiji and munetoshi (just received) in my work bag...if I had to choose one of the three it would be the toyama.

I've worked with all three as well, and I'd agree wholeheartedly.

I should probably chill out on the Toyama love before people think I'm getting kick backs from Maksim...
 
I've worked with all three as well, and I'd agree wholeheartedly.

I should probably chill out on the Toyama love before people think I'm getting kick backs from Maksim...

Lol I was reading earlier and said to myself he is gonna need to start getting paid for his Toyama advertising.
 
Just received my Toyama 240 that I bought off BST. My first WH, only tried it on an old sweet potato that I had, figured that it would wedge like crazy but it didn't. I actually really loved it right away. I second that the handle is upgrade worthy, but other than that I'm more than intrigued. Will use that one a lot more the next couple of weeks. Don't see it being one of the several knives that I will sell in the coming weeks...
 
For what it's worth - I have the Munetoshi (I did not even had the chance to use it yet!) and a Watanabe 240 on loan. The grinds are VERY different. The Watanabe is much thinner and flatter, two very different knives. For hard large vegetables I am pretty much sure the Watanabe would be the better choice. I expect the Munetoshi to perform very well on slightly softer stuff and to have better food release (the Watanabe does not have much of this thanks to its thinnness)

EDIT: The 240 Watanabe is 55 mm tall (as is Toyama) - that makes the knife feel larger than it is even though it is not excessively heavy (235g). I am thinking that 210 would be a great size for home use (Even tohugh I prefer 240 gyuto size myself)
 
Other than the semi-stainless Heiji, the knives mentioned in this thread are carbon. Are there stainless or other semi-stainless options that should be considered?
 
What about stainless clad Kochi or Siousin Chiku? Both are around 200g. Also Yoshikane SKD could be an interesting choice with incredible edge holding.
 
Have you looked at Itinomon stainLess, Kamo R2 and Tanaka ironwood? I believe these are all stainless workhorse knives, but I've only used the Tanaka. FWIW, I reach for my Tanaka more than my Heiji
 
im surprised nobody said Kato ... you can still find them under $600. Kato's are the reason we use the phrase "work horse" in the first place. before that it was always "lazer" :running:
 
im surprised nobody said Kato ... you can still find them under $600. Kato's are the reason we use the phrase "work horse" in the first place. before that it was always "lazer" :running:

Mind pming me a link to these katos? :D
 
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