is there something much better or jnat than the JNS Red Aoto?

Hi!

I would to ask for some advice from the sharpening guys and girls here

Is there something much better smoother faster cooler than the JNS red aoto and even better a good jnat alternative that does not cost 200++ bucks directly?
i am using synthetics with pleasure until i go on my brick size suitas.

My setup is as mentioned before on other posts a JNS 1k, JNS red aoto, JNS 6k and then Suitas and if needed finer jnats.
i had been absent from sharpening for quiet a while and was so lazy that i directly jumped from the 1k to the ohira (wich is no problem, but 2 steps between gives a better edge)

the JNS red aoto is awesome.. its the mudmaster3000 and makes a nice hazy finish, but it feels scratchy and not so smooth like the creamy 6k.
it actually feels like there are some sand particles in the smooth surface. well the stone is awesome and the mud is very cool for knifepolishing too.

soo as i know from watanabe most coarse and medium jnats are not as effective or consistent and its really hard to find a very good one that surpaces any synthetic stone.
is there something cooler in the 2-3k range (something with a mixed jnat like grit) ?

or a fire and forget jnat ? i am not sure if a real aoto would make sense (tanba and from watanabe) and i dondt know about ikarashi and whatever stuff in the medium range
the jns 6 will 100% stay in my setup because its awesome


just need some ideas! so please dondt waste to much time on my request )

seeya daniel!

I'm rather fond of my JNS Red Aoto as well... I personally think that it is mildly creamy (There may be some batch variation.), but it is a blend of 2-4K grit, so it will never feel as smooth as a 6K stone.

What it sounds like you are describing - and what would fit well into your set, given that the rest of your stones are hard - is the JNS Aoto Matukusuyama: http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/jns-aoto-matukusuyama/. I actually picked this one up recently, and have been playing with it... This is a fairly hard splash & go stone, with a finer grit blend than the Red Aoto (I'd say 3-5K mix seems plausible; it isn't listed, but it's a notably finer scratch pattern under a microscope.), and has a smoother feel to it. The feedback isn't as pronounced as on the Red Aoto, due to being both harder and finer, but it's still much better than a Shapton or similar. Unlike the Red Aoto it is very dish resistant, and yet isn't so hard that it's a bear to flatten. The cutting speed is also a little slower, but it's still fast enough for touch ups on edge bevels. On edges it really doesn't mud up, but on wide or single bevels it will generate a moderate amount. It creates decent contrast between both Jigane and Hagane, and is surprisingly doesn't leave as many streaks on the cladding as some other hard stones.

The interesting thing is that even though this is a finer stone than the Red Aoto, it is the Red Aoto that actually leaves the better polish on the Hagane. It leaves a slightly hazier polish on the core steel, and a slightly lighter shade of grey on the cladding. This means that you will either achieve a slightly mistier polish on the Hagane in your final result, or your 6K & Suita will have more work cut out for themselves to bring the polish back up. The misty finish it leaves is classy looking since it is slightly more subtle, but it is a little less distinct than the Red Aoto.

The cutting edge left behind by this stone on its own is definitely more on the refined side, and has some bite to it (More so than a 5K Shapton), but doesn't have that beautiful toothy balance that the Red Aoto has. I like it on fine grained stainless (Sandvik 12C27/13C26)... In terms of sharpening, I prefer the Red Aoto on harder knives, and those with higher carbide contents (Aogami, SLD, powdered metal stainless, hard Shirogami, etc.). This one I like better on <62hrc steels, and simpler alloys (AUS-8, Ginsan, Sandvik, VG-10, 10xx-Series carbon, softer Shirogami, etc.).

I don't have an Ikarashi, but I do have one of Maksim's Type 30 White Binsui's... This is technically a coarser stone (~1-2K grit equiv.) than the synthetic JNS Red Aoto, and it is very hard and dish resistant, but it works very differently than a synthetic. Firstly, on anything but low-carbide steels (Shirogami, 10xx-series, Ginsan, Sandvik 12C27/13C26, etc.) it doesn't have the cutting power to shape edge bevels that a synthetic 1-2K stone has, although on low-carbide steels it works just fine. However, providing you're jumping from a 300-400 grit finish, on wide bevels (And I assume single bevels.) it actually does a great job at converting the scratch pattern on just about any steel (Including Aogami, which it typically struggles with on edges; with more metal in contact with the stone, it really sings.). The contrast, and finish it leaves is fantastic; way better than any 1-2K synth I've tried. It's still not as fine as the Red Aoto, but it creates a perfect contrast with a surprising amount of polish on the Hagane, leaves a very shallow scratch pattern (Equiv. to ~2K ish if you work the mud; maybe a little finer if you let it dry out and load up a bit, or use a finer nagura.) that is easily converted, and results in a much more consistent grey haze on the Jigane than I have seen so far from synthetics.

The interesting thing about the Binsui, is that whilst it is a coarser stone than the Red Aoto (Or Maksim's harder synthetic Aoto), and is a long way off from a 6K, in some ways it sets the blade up better for making the jump to a natural finisher (Like your Suita) than finer synthetic stones. It already gets the polish on the core kicked off just enough that the finisher isn't fighting a losing battle, and the slightly coarser (But still shallow) scratch pattern helps the finisher to generate more mud so that it cuts quicker and leaves a more even finish. In a wide bevel finishing progression, I would actually replace the 1K, Red Aoto, and 6K with this stone, but that's just me, with my limited selection of J-Nats to choose from. If I had more mid-range natural stones, I'd probably throw those between the binsui and my finisher + finger stones. A full natural progression just works differently for wide bevel finishing...

However, if you want a stone to fill the gap in your synthetic progression currently occupied by the Red Aoto, a Binsui wouldn't be my pick. It's a lateral step from your 1K, and a backwards step from your synthetic Aoto; it also has a rougher (Although very enjoyable; more so than a similarly hard synthetic 1K) feel, as it is a coarser stone. If you want a shoe-in for your current lineup, I'd say that Maksim's hard synthetic Aoto Matukusuyama might be worth a try.

Hopefully this helps...

- Steampunk

Ah cool! thanks for the detailed answer steampunk!
And thiiiiiiiiiiiissss helped a lot!!!

i can actually try the other jns aoto first, because a friend of mine (karnstein) has got one and i have to visit him to give him back his kotetsu gyuto.
i also thought about that stone actually.. another option would be the watanabe ai1000 and ai2000.. the first one has 400-2000 and the other pne 3000+ so this combination could be also interesting (actually i cant get the ai1000 out of my haed and will buy this one)

yeah i totally love the muddy style of the red brick! i will try it today again. and well its whining on the highest level thats what iam doing right now!

well it seems this red aoto is still the best choice for me and i should use it more often.
all the coarser stones are totally uninteresting for me since i prefer my high class synthetics any time over coarse jnats.

on the jns 1k i can but anything from butter to 65hrc pm steel and i dondt feel any difference.
as i am totally wrecking my finish on purpose and actually uses some 400-1000k cheap grinding sponge to make my needlebrush style finish i like, its not so important for me

well i could try this in the future of course if i should shoot me somthing on the bay for cheap or yahoo japan auctions (like 2 crazy awesome super fine kiita nashiji mystery stones that are on the way to me right now)

i still will ask watanabe about his ikarashis .. he says in the description of one that its good after his ai1000 wich has 400-2000.. well it shouldnt be wrong to ask him for advice to.
but i will definetly try out the other JNS Aoto from karnstein to see if its ok.

very good advice form you steampunk and thanks a lot for exactly answering my question!
seeya, daniel!

I would also recommend the JNS Aoto Matukusuyama as described before.
Maxim calls it his 3000 grit stone. It is smooth, hard and absoultely not scratchy as the red aoto it (in the feeling).

If you a looking for a natural, try the Khao men: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/27606-Khao-men
Nice and very smooth.

WOW shut up and take my money on that Khao men!

i will order this at once and a white binsu on top.
holy moly this looks much more interesting and i like muddy stones.
since the jns is more than 100 bucks i will try those "tnats"!

thanks for this awesome tip and i send you a pm regarding the jnats

The Khao men is such great value for money.. I ordered the large one and kinda wished I didn't as its massive (bigger than my JNS red aoto). I would get the smaller one if I had another chance as I will never wear the large one out.

haha i want the big one of course!
or does big mean super thick? i love bigger stones much more.

so i write a mail to [email protected] for a white one and the khao men?
shipping would go to germany but for the price i dondt care.. i got some mystery jnats were the shipping was nearly as much as the 2 stones so its ok.

coool thanks for those good tips . i think thats thing is what i am looking for badly !
still the JNS 6k will stay in my setup and the binsui will be just an extra.. maybe its awesome .

seeya, daniel

Well, I persuaded myself into buying the orange + the white binsui as well as the Khao Men. And I have absolutely no regrets.
I considered just taking the white and the Khao Men, but actually I belive the orange one is nicer than the white one.

The Khao Men is the star for me. Absolutely a smooth experience. To be honest it is smoother than the JNS 6000.
It´s HUGE and its transforming a blade into shaving sharp territorry, no matter what steel it is.

The white is hard and rough, I have not used i so much yet, but it´s real good with white steel. Again shaving sharp. But its not a smooth experience. Now, this stone let´s you know you are remowing metal. Like the JNS 800. But not as violent as the JNS 800. A bit more elegance, that you would expect from a natural. Hence, also a bit more slow.

The Orange one is softer. But in no way muddy. Its beautifull. Mine has a bit of what looks like "range" but supersized. Like leaves.
It´s a lot more pleasant to work with.

If I were to leave one out, it would now be the white one. But I´m glad I got the "whole set".
In my opinion, these stones do not lack anything compared to the japanese ones.
But you shold know, that I have only been into naturals for a year or two. However, I have tried quite a few at the gatherings at JNS.


The transaction and the correspondance with Miles have been excellent.
Quote From Miles:
Orange Binsu - 700-900 true grit - slurry/sharpeness 1000-1200

White Binsu - 1000-1400 true grit - slurry sharpness 1200-1500

Khao Men - 2000 true grit - slurry/polish 3000-3200


I my experience, I believe, that the stones finish quite a bit higher than stated above.

I got 3 BRICKS, and I payed 104 USD in shipping.
I´ll se if I can take a pic or two, for you.

Yeah the thai stones are fun, but I was reluctant to recommend them. Not because they're a killer secret weapon, but because the knife communities have these nasty hype cycles that can flood and ruin the market for the intended customers.

I like the white "binsui" when it glazes over (burnishes), because it takes foreign slurry very well. They are not super fast stones and I'd never use them to try to replace anything approaching 1k, but that's just me. Khao men is not my final polisher, but it does a very decent working polish. I have not really done sharpening on these stones and have no opinion regarding that.

Have a look at the Gesshin Synthetic Natural. It creates a little mud if large surface gets contact with the stone, otherwise nearly no mud. It leaves just pretty much perfect edge for most kitchen knives (somewhere between Gesshin 4000 and Gesshin 6000). It is however not a kasumi making stone. You can still use it to work the bevels, but you will need to use some other stone afterwards as this stone will not give you much of contrast between hagane and jigane. It feels nicely smooth during sharpening.

These are my stones from Thailand.






(the white balance is a bit off, as the white ons almost looks blue in the pics - It is really not. The orange one is a bit more orange (red) in real life. )

Smallest one is the White Binsui: 20,2 x 8,5 x 6 cm (L x W x H)
Weight: 2,55 kg

Khao Men: 23 x 7,6 x 7,2 cm
Weight: 2,99 kg

Orange Binsui: 24 x 8,2 x 6,7 cm
Weight: 3,10 kg

This is why the shipping was a bit expensive.

ahh nice infos @jaknil!
is the orange one great for starting.. like 800 grit or what was it?

i got a mail from miles and he has a white grey type thats more dense and fine than the whitewhite one.

i will definitely go for the khao men! and i also send you a pm regarding the jnats (the yen rate was 1euro:135yen that time )

alllllllllllright.... i just order one khao men and a grey white binsu right now..

... so BIG THANKS for that great tip! I never knew about the quality of stones from Thailand.
so its not just jnats but tnats as well that rock! ..

after the jns 1000 the binsu should work great, the khao men as red aoto replacement and then ill see if i need the jns 6000 before i go on ohiras..

that would be nice to have mostly natural stones for the whole sharpening (well 1k will still not be replaced because that stone works simply awesome)
Hannibal smith from the A-team would say: I love it when a plan comes together!

seeya

Great info all !

oh @matus
Thanks for the info on the gesshin Stones but those natural stones look very interesting for me so ill try them thanks to all your infos.. also had some mails with miles and he gave me a good consulting on his stones and ill just go for it

Krassi, of course, no problem. I am eying those Thai stones myself and in fact plan to order some after our vacation (if I still have some money left)

Interesting to see. The orange one looks quite a lot like a Japanese Natsuya and, as someone has already said, the black looks like a Tsushima

hi Asteger!

those binsu stones are interesting because of their big variety. i will get a white grey type which should be a bit finer denser than the white one.
http://imgur.com/a/D7vpz

i guess i pass on the orange one since mile himself uses 1k syntetic himself and then the white binsu.

for that gigantic size of both stones i could not resist

Krassi said:

hi Asteger! those binsu stones are interesting because of their big variety. i will get a white grey type which should be a bit finer denser than the white one.
http://imgur.com/a/D7vpz i guess i pass on the orange one since mile himself uses 1k syntetic himself and then the white binsu. for that gigantic size of both stones i could not resist

Click to expand...

Now and then people post stuff about interesting stones from non-J places, here and there, and I always remember them. There've been a few from the Philippines, a little about Vietnam too I think, and now Thailand - maybe the best yet. I'd certainly try 1 or 2 if I weren't currently in a no-buying mode.

By the way, Jaknil, looks like you should get some good lacquer on the orange one before next use.

hiho!
my "no-buying mode" is broken again, so i get me those stones and some additional knifes that i dondt need.
i was actually just curious if there is a good JNS red aoto alternative.. and this thing sounds like my answer..

well i will see how they work once i get them in my hands

Asteger said:

By the way, Jaknil, looks like you should get some good lacquer on the orange one before next use.

Click to expand...

Miles wrote that the Thai Binsuis dont need lacquer. Not all nats need lacquer, no?