Recommendations: quintessential student deba

LOCATION
What country are you in?

Germany



KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?

Classic Deba. These 8mm+ spined, heavy, kataha, shiny things. Not intending to use it classically though (I eat no fish), but explore what else that shape is good for.


Are you right or left handed?

Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?

japanese.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?

150-180mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)

No, would prefer classic (Yasuki) core steel with stainless jigane, second best would be carbon-carbon nimai.

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?

Around €150

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?

Home, and as mentioned, in an experimental/experience capacity.

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)

Any that I can find it works surprisingly well at Mostly as a heavy mincer for non-tall stuff (herbs, dried fruit...) and a fist-tap-driven splitter. IIRC these are considered legit side uses for a deba? Would assume that the obscure "SOME debas can handle splitting frozen stuff" sometimes read is not about the kataha versions, and that nuts and sugar are best left to a real cleaver


What knife, if any, are you replacing?

None

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)

Mostly pinch; sometimes holding lightly by the ferrule, steering with a side finger farther in front, letting the handle float against the palm.

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)

This one should stand some rocking - mincer use

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

I care about learning to deal with/make use of exactly that classic shape...

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?

I do not *prefer* real horn or similar materials, would rather have a Pakka, metal or plastic ferrule. Prefer octagon handles if there is a choice.

I guess migaki/kasumi would be classic?

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?

I thought we're talking the antithesis of a light and balanced knife here

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?

I'll curse if I have to learn opening it, but I guess I'll still open it


Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)

Yes j/k, got bamboo, wood and poly, love to use bamboo if I can get away with it.

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)

Yes.



Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)

Nothing specific to that one.



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS


Already looked at the Nakagoshi 180mm and the Tojiro F-902, but interested in other suggestions towards similar knives. Both look close to what I want, apart from the non-stainless cladding on both and the real horn on the Tojiro. Also looked at various Tanakas, ending up terribly confused about there being multiple Tanaka brands all having these red stickers, and some being obviously lighter and thinner while looking the same as the "full strength" versions

I have a 180mm Gesshin Uraku Deba on B/S/T right now

I think I looked at that very offer this morning and regretted it was overseas BTW, naive question to these actually using them on fish: How do you keep the handle from absorbing all kinds of fishiness?

Considering the tasks you mention, you don't want a single-bevel deba, but rather a double-bevel Western deba, which is, in essence, a heavy gyuto.

Single-bevel debas were designed for breaking down whole fish and aren't really suited for other tasks, though they can be pressed into breaking down poultry. The are not suitable for mincing or for splitting, especially not anything frozen, regardless of anything you have read.

Rick

When I get new knives I put wa handles in a linseed oil bath and keep them there for one week. I let the wood drink up all the oil it needs. Then I´ll wipe the excess oil off and let it air dry for 1-2 weeks depending on how fast it feels dry. That keeps all the unwanted stuff off of my wa handless.

After a couple of months (or when the surface starts to feel dry) I'll reapply a thin coat of linseed oil, rub it in and let it dry for a day or two.
Keeps my handles nice and fresh.

I've also never heard of a ss clad carbon single bevel...!

@Pensacola Tiger please do not take offense to me asking whether you state that from experience or canon, it is not a rhetorical question. About the frozen things, yes it was my assumption that it is not something to do or even to try*. About the splitting, I would have assumed that anything used to split a fish in two parts could stand other splitting tasks.

*how does an actual reito-kiri (not the serrated kind) do the job without getting damaged, anyway? just a very obtuse edge?

spoiledbroth said:

I've also never heard of a ss clad carbon single bevel...!

Click to expand...

i've seen some and they are the most retarded thing ever

LifeByA1000Cuts said:

@Pensacola Tiger please do not take offense to me asking whether you state that from experience or canon, it is not a rhetorical question. About the frozen things, yes it was my assumption that it is not something to do or even to try*. About the splitting, I would have assumed that anything used to split a fish in two parts could stand other splitting tasks.

*how does an actual reito-kiri (not the serrated kind) do the job without getting damaged, anyway? just a very obtuse edge?

Click to expand...

No offense taken. I usually post only from my experience, not from what I've read, and on the infrequent occasion that I do, I will qualify my post with that fact.

Yes, if the heel of the deba is sharpened to a less acute angle it is useful for going through fish bones and removing the head. When I was experimenting with using a deba for chicken, I put a small chip in the heel area when I used it to go through rib bones, so I just use a pair of kitchen shears now. I also found that a petty served just as well as a deba for chicken, so my deba is used strictly for fish.

I use a Western deba for chopping nuts and chocolate. It has a convexed edge with a lot of metal behind the edge to support it.

LifeByA1000Cuts said:

About the splitting, I would have assumed that anything used to split a fish in two parts could stand other splitting tasks.

Click to expand...

There's not really any ' splitting in two ' going on with deba-on-fish work. Rather, it is focused on carefully separating the flesh from the bones. The heel is used to go through the spine at the rear of the head but you cut at a joint in the vertebrae - esp with larger fish - and as Rick says you can also make the heel tougher to protect the knife for that job.

The deba also cuts through rib bones, but there's no 'splitting in two'.

LifeByA1000Cuts said:

I think I looked at that very offer this morning and regretted it was overseas BTW, naive question to these actually using them on fish: How do you keep the handle from absorbing all kinds of fishiness?

Click to expand...

Simple really. Just don't touch the fish with the handle.

Mt question is why are you rocking and mincing with a deba? It should be used for fish fabrication like this.

[video=youtube;W7__yMkGvzc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7__yMkGvzc[/video]

Notice I never touch the product with my knife hand. This is how I keep my handles uncontaminated.

Because I eat nor cook no fish, and assumed there were these ingredient-independent other uses, esp given the classic trinity (yanagi/usuba/deba) seems to have no other knife remotely suitable to rougher tasks...

While a deba may seem suited for rougher tasks because of its thick spine, it is actually quite thin at the edge just like an usuba. I wouldn't use it for chopping or mincing etc for fear of chipping the edge. What you may be looking for is a yo deba. At least that's what I use when I'm abusing a product like chocolate or nuts or chicken bones.

ThEoRy said:

While a deba may seem suited for rougher tasks because of its thick spine, it is actually quite thin at the edge just like an usuba. I wouldn't use it for chopping or mincing etc for fear of chipping the edge. What you may be looking for is a yo deba. At least that's what I use when I'm abusing a product like chocolate or nuts or chicken bones. Or smashing hell out of a bunch of garlic cloves.

Click to expand...

What Ricks said.

A deba, at least the ones I've owned, is very poorly suited for rocking and even more poorly suited for the torsional stress from mincing. I can appreciate wanting to experiment but would discourage you from making the same mistakes that many (including me) before you have made.

A traditional deba shines when breaking down fish and the smaller ones will do well on chicken. (Don't tell anyone I said that) Like others have said there is little bone breaking taking place and I try and keep it close to handle.

The yo deba, western deba or double bevel deba is more like a gyuto with some ass to it. I use a Henckels Chef or cleaver when I need a beater. Theory wears out his yo deba on several videos doing the same thing. If I was starting from scratch I would ask him for make/model.

Misono Sweden steel western deba 165mm (JCK) just scrapes in to your price bracket. I have the 210mm version and love it.
I love my single bevel deba but after experimentation only use it for fish filleting, I use it in tandem with the western deba for cutting the head off and ribs in larger fish.
There are quite a few options in western debas in your price range, as the other members have suggested this option would probably serve you better than a single bevel.
Happy hunting.

Tojiro DP 210 Western deba from Knives & Stones - €99.25 plus shipping at today's exchange rate.

http://www.knivesandstones.com/tojiro-dp-cobalt-western-deba-210mm-f-814/

I found the "torsional stress" thing is even true of wa gyutos - that's why I tend to be doubtful if people recommend a takamura red (yo handled I knowI know...) of all things to people looking for a general purpose chef knife. So the yo-deba is a japanese solution to a japanese gap, rather than (as I thought) a japanese offer to a western market?

@JBroida why would stainless jigane be retarded in principle on a kataba - what quickly gives patina on hagane, gives you rusty jigane And carbon-under-stainless nashiji knives are well established in the double bevel world.

...

Still got the F-902 out of curiosity... surprised how differently useful than I thought it is in veg prep. The tip is an amazing curve cutter, and the weight kind of makes the whole thing feel gyro-stabilized Zero-pith lemon zesting with a 1/2lb knife, did not expect that.
I wonder if the various hints at mincing herbs actually meant usuba-like fine chopping - does it, and doesn't do it bad. Though I find the edge doesn't take that badly to *light* rocking (as in, not using force you wouldn't want on a gyuto).