Why is no one mass producing monosteel lasers?

Looking at the prices for the Suisin Inox and Konosuke HD, demand for monosteel lasers seems pretty high.

Haven't found definitive data on how either is made but guessing you could roll out thin blanks, stamp or cut them to the right size and just grind to finish. The Germans are pretty damn good at this and it would be great to have a lower cost option that you don't have to wait months to buy. Kono is pretty secretive about what the HD2 steel is but it's gotta be some PM steel that a big company like Henkels/Miyabi could easily reverse engineer and mass produce.

Am I wrong about how these are made? Would love someone more knowledgeable to correct me. Could definitely be underestimating the skill it takes to make these knives. Maybe heat treating monosteel is tricky or more of this is done by hand.

Now the big question is, if Shun sold a high performing laser for half the price of Japanese alternatives, would you buy one? I'd love to have that option to give people as gifts or even use without worrying about damaging it and not being able to get a replacement for months.

My personal impression is that the market in good quality lasers is not as high as you assume, otherwise companies like Tojiro would be making them. Now whether it is the market, or the fact that a very thin knives are more demanding to be made properly is something I can only speculate about.

Shun does not strike me like a company making cheap well made knives (bang for the $)

Do Herders count as mass produced mono steel lasers?

Shun would likely charge 1.5x of Japanese alternatives.

Your comparison would be more valid with a Gesshin Stainless or Suisin Western Inox. Not lasers but thin. Likely stamped or stock removal. More knife than Shun Classic or Premier. More knife than anything Shun would roll out as a stamped "laser". The only thing duller than a dull Shun is an Al Gore speach.

Just throwing out Shun as an example and probably not a good one but maybe Tojiro. What's stopping them from mass producing a reasonably priced laser? Is it more difficult to make one that I am guessing? Core steel is more expensive than cladding but it's not like there's that much material in a laser either.

bennyprofane said:

Do Herders count as mass produced mono steel lasers?

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Not familiar with Herder. Can you share a link or model name/number?

Unstoppabo said:

Haven't found definitive data on how either is made but guessing you could roll out thin blanks, stamp or cut them to the right size and just grind to finish.

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Mass production needs a mass market. You need to sell a lot of them. So, how fine an edge and what hardness would be acceptable for the mass market? Given how many people I've seen complain about Shun knives being crap because they chipped, you'd need something softer and/or with a more robust edge. There are plenty of thin stamped knives out there with soft but tough steel and robust edges. People buy them in large numbers.

That's probably it. Most people probably don't want to bother with a chippy knife no matter how sharp it is and probably think heavy = quality still.

That being said, is there any reason why all the options in the market are fairly pricy and why so few people make them?

Forgot to include the Gesshin Ginga line, which I haven't had the privilege of trying but seems to be in the same category. Question for Jon, who must know more about how these are manufactured than any of us - Are lasers difficult to manufacture? I'm sure you would like to have more Gingas to sell since they are perpetually sold out.

Unstoppabo said:

Not familiar with Herder. Can you share a link or model name/number?

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Robert Herder Windmühlen Messer (windmill knives) is a traditional German knife maker, they make overall very thin knives both in stainless and carbon. Their upscale K series (also stainless and carbon) is around 60 HRC, although the biggest one the K5 (thickness of spine 1.8mm) is only 180mm:

https://www.knivesandtools.co.uk/en/pt/-robert-herder-k5-chef-s-knife-9745-1855-04.htm#tabbutton1

They also make a 230mm one in the "1922" series but only in carbon and might not be considered a laser (although it has been called a laser in a German knife forum pass around review thread):

https://www.knivesandtools.co.uk/en/pt/-robert-herder-1922-8-chef-s-knife.htm

All of their knives are available here: (use chrome browser to translate)

http://www.messer-mit-tradition.de

Herder knives were my entry to sharp knives, their regular carbon knives (around 57 HRC) are very cheap, starting from 10 bucks for a paring knife and 45 for a santoku (thickness of spine 1.7mm), I still like to use them, their buckels knife is nice for breakfast: https://www.knivesandtools.co.uk/en/pt/-robert-herder-breakfast-knife-buckels-carbon-plumwood.htm

The potential for a lot of returns from silly gaijin and novice cooks in Japan is probably more than enough reason for them not to. I don't see a lot of lasers in working kitchens but I only know the ones ive worked in.

Is monosteel a requirement? There are plenty san-mai lasers out there.

It would be surprising if the cost of Suisin or Konosuke was due to the demand for lasers. Suisin typically has been 20-30 percent more expensive then its competitors. Konosuke has a number of lines and all of them are popular.

A few years ago, lasers were all the rage on the forums. Nothing cuts like a laser with little or no resistance as it glides through veggies or proteins. Since lasers are so light they don't assist with the cut, the way a heavier knife does. Prepping a large amount veggies, with a laser can be tiresome if one isn't used to it. Lasers quickly passed out of fashion. Workhorses replaced them.

Aframes sells Tadatsuna knifes, which are lasers, mentions in the descriptions that they are difficult to make. If its not just marketing then lasers might be more difficult to make then a workhorse.

Who knows Global, Shun, or Tojiro may try a laser.

Jay

Kandehide...has the best that I've used....aebL steel...semi laser.
If the yen was weaker, retail cost would be lower.

Which Kanehide is AEB-L? I only see semi-stainless (I guess not AEB-L) and pm.

Ps60

why is nobody mass producing monosteel workhorses?

LucasFur said:

why is nobody mass producing monosteel workhorses?

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Zwilling is.

But, the price ....?

wphill said:

But, the price ....?

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8" $200; 10" $250.

This might be taboo...kanehide's ps60 is an impressive performer...F&F good, and at a lower price point.
Kramer is a respected knife maker...just saying kanehide does have a decent mono steel for less.
I'm on the cusp of getting a petty of this brand as a gift for a family that keeps telling me how much they love cutco. Almost enough for a knife nut to get his nose out of joint and open his wallet. AebL is stainless, so there's hope. All that is another story.

I think my neeman might be thin enough to be called a laser and its thinness is what i like the least. Perhaps ive never held or used a good laser but ive always associated thin stock knives with cheap mass produced schlock. In which case, isnt ikea mass producing lasers?

Thanks everyone. Kanehide looks like it could be exactly what I had in mind. Not a huge fan of a bolster but very reasonable price, especially considering the above average F&F. Funny you should mention Ikea. Bartended my way through college and borrowed a cheap Ikea petty from one of the guys in the kitchen to cut fruit. Didn't know anything about knives then but liked using it. The knife's owner put a pretty mean edge on that sucker too!

I believe this is the same knife as Kanehide but branded as Kashima RS-60?
http://cleancut.se/butik/knivserier/kashima-4/kashima

...and just to get back to Rusos earlier point, why is monosteel a must?

No bolster on the blade....impresses me,,fwiw.
But, yes, significance of mono-steel? My Yusuke white steel is mono and it has better feedback to hands and ear....particulaly when on the stones...when cutting, more nimble. All subjective stuff.

Masahiro MV with the plastic handle and MV-H are lasers, on the softer side of hardness, very fine grained, becomes very sharp in no time.
Affordable prices

Then there's tojiro Mvs line.....same steel as the masahiro....much better price, but not as nice F&F and no idea as performance. I'm told that,the ps60 line performs better than the tojiro Mvs .....when looking for a gift for a family neck deep in love with cutco....though the cheap F&F may have been a factor. Curious if someone has compared these stainless steel knives...price is in the range for gifts.

The needs of the home cook are not the same as the needs of the professional chef. Professionals appreciate the practicality of a monosteel blade. I think this is lost on the home cook. I've gone past my laser phase although I demand that any all-around knife is extremely thin toward the tip (either through a great distal taper or because it's a laser). I am actually amazed that KAI/Shun and Miyabi can produce knives in such high volume knowing how much of the work is still hand-finishing and hand-grinding. Monosteels are plentiful and most of them are on the thin side. Monosteel molybdenum-vanadium incarnations like Masamoto, Misono, Masahiro are not difficult to find. And the prior post also added the stainless Bob Kramer. Miyabi also has a mass produced Swedish stainless monosteel line... but I wouldn't call either of these lasers.

Even after my houseguests have wielded a Konosuke HD, Ashi Ginga, or Kikuichi TKC, they still stick to their Williams-Sonoma buys. I guess something about buying from a big store gives them comfort.

My Mac Pro gyuto is a monosteel blade. Great distal taper, very thin tip, perfect french profile with a very generous flat spot and a well rocking tip. Great feedback too. Not quite a laser but not far behind. Although my Kohetsu HAP40 wa has quite nice feedback too. I think it's because of the ultra hard steel that compensates the sanmai construction. Is any of Macs knives considered a laser?

Btw western handled knives tend to have better feedback overall because you are holding the the actual steel in your palm, the blade will vibrate every nuance of information from the board to your to the back of your hand thru that one piece of metal, from the tip to the tang without any obstructions. Compared to wa handle where the steel is wrapped around (a softer material) wood that will mute some of that crispness. Of course pinch grip helps but the difference is there.