Steel 52100 knives and knifemakers

Hi all,

I have been slowly looking for my next knife acquisition. I am looking for a gyuto, 240-270mm, mid thickness on the spine and fairly thin on the edge.
So far one of the alloys that I have not tried is 52100. Is this type of steel a good one for gyuto, general purpose applications?
I own several carbon blades, caring and dealing with reactivity is not an issue. My sharpening game is also improving steadily.

Who would be a nice vendor/craftsman for 52100 kitchen knives? What is the HRC that it performs the best? Edge taking but not too brittle.
Are there honyaki (differentially treated) 52100 blades out there? If not why?

Thank you for your insights

G :biggrin:

GRoc said:

Hi all,

I have been slowly looking for my next knife acquisition. I am looking for a gyuto, 240-270mm, mid thickness on the spine and fairly thin on the edge.
So far one of the alloys that I have not tried is 52100. Is this type of steel a good one for gyuto, general purpose applications?
I own several carbon blades, caring and dealing with reactivity is not an issue. My sharpening game is also improving steadily.

Who would be a nice vendor/craftsman for 52100 kitchen knives? What is the HRC that it performs the best? Edge taking but not too brittle.
Are there honyaki (differentially treated) 52100 blades out there? If not why?

Thank you for your insights

G :biggrin:

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Some artisans to investigate:

Bill Burke (also sold by The Epicurean Edge)
Ian Rogers (Haburn Knives)
Shehan Prull (Shihan Fine Knives, also sold by Japanese Knife Imports as Ginrei)
Marko Tsourkan (Tsourkan Knives)
Michael Rader (http://www.raderblade.com)

few of the knives i also know come in 52100

1. Zkramers
2. Ginrei ( there is a 240mm in the BST section now)
3. Billipp - if you can find one, but you'll need deep pockets and patience.

52100 is regarded as among the best carbons. Odd that its so often used by american makers but almost never used by Japanese makers. Guess its the cost of shipping.

LucasFur said:

52100 is regarded as among the best carbons. Odd that its so often used by american makers but almost never used by Japanese makers. Guess its the cost of shipping.

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Furbie, There are lots of great carbon steels equal to or better 52100.

Thank you for the responses gentlemen! Really appreciated! Man, some of these get into 4-digit territory... I'd better start boosting the "knife savings account" ! LOL

Mucho Bocho said:

Furbie, There are lots of great carbon steels equal to or better 52100.

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Which ones would be better than 52100 and by which maker M.B. ? Which one would be/is your dream carbon steel?

Shaun Fernandez (aka knifeFanatic). He works with CTG. I do not know his work personally, but he only uses 52100 and his knife looks very nice.

Dancing on the edge Z.

Wait. Let me get my popcorn...




OK proceed.

Mr. Mucho. -- I am really curious to steels that are by far and away better.

GRoc said:

Thank you for the responses gentlemen! Really appreciated! Man, some of these get into 4-digit territory... I'd better start boosting the "knife savings account" ! LOL

Which ones would be better than 52100 and by which maker M.B. ? Which one would be/is your dream carbon steel?

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If you are open to other carbon steels than 52100, you might want to get on Mert Tansu's list. Mert is a full-time chef and part-time knife maker in Australia. He uses various carbon steels in both monosteel and san mai.

Will Catcheside in England is making forged san mai knives with 1.2442 as the core that are excellent performers.

Does anybody like the feel of 52100 on stones? Likely my least favorite carbon so far for just that reason.

LucasFur said:

Mr. Mucho. -- I am really curious to steels that are by far and away better.

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I don't think it's really about the steel themselves generally. Depending upon the maker, heat treatment has a lot more to do with steel performance.

I'm not a carbon guy, only a couple. Always interesting to see a discussion of the merits of various steel formulations.

Were I looking for a heirloom carbon today I would look towards Georgia and a knife made from an axle of a 63 VW, the leaf spring of a John Deere or maybe the hatch of a submarine...

daveb said:

Were I looking for a heirloom carbon today I would look towards Georgia and a knife made from an axle of a 63 VW, the leaf spring of a John Deere. or maybe the hatch of a submarine...

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In other words, Bloodroot. But you've got to have the patience to wait 40-something months, or get lucky with their monthly sales (which are done by lottery to win the chance to purchase).

Bloodroot has made 52100 knives with an excellent heat treat. The waiting list is long but you won't regret it.

Marko also makes one of the best 52100 blades.

I've used others but the heat treats were not very good.

Mucho Bocho said:

Furbie, There are lots of great carbon steels equal to or better 52100.

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Mucho, I'm still curious to hear some of the steels that you'd rate overall as equal to or better. Not that I think there is any perfect steel. I do remember a few years ago that Devin Thomas rated some popular steels (certainly not exhaustive), and 52100 came out very well. But I'm curious about other carbon steels that anyone out there would rate very highly. And feel free to tie it to particular makers' heat treatment.

Todd, I guess i've come to the conclusion that asking the question "which is the best steel" or a lot like asking "Who are we, where do we come from and where are we going." Meaning, the answer depends on your point of view. If you go from super clean carbon (white) to super clean stainless (Swedish), if HT is done properly, will excel in some applications and do poorly in others. Also, the hardness of the steel will also change how it behaves. More over, 52100 comes in several flavors too. I know that Devin is working with an aerospace 52100 flavor that he said could achieve four times edge stability compared to other 52100 steels.

I'm a home cook, the qualities I value in my knives/steel are ultra sharpness. thats why most of my knives are in White #1, DT AEBL, Swedish Stainless, ginsanko... and I stay away from Blue, Super Blue, Hap40, ZDP...

It's my understanding that Bob Kramer brought 52100 to the kitchen knife market. When someone buys a Zwilling 52100 Kramer, do they think their getting REAL Bob Kramer 52100 steel? Everybody thought that AEBL was crap do to its low carbon content, till Devin proved everyone wrong. Look at what Will Catcheside does with 1.2442...

So my point is, there is no one steel blend that is BEST at everything. Its the smith that makes the steel what it is, not that the steel is inherently desirable because of its composition.

Mucho Bocho said:

...Look at what Will Catcheside does with 1.2442...

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This steel is in my mind my favorite carbon steel...though I've not tried Will 's version (I've got a monosteel from Tilman). And I really like V2 and Blue 2...all a bit different but again, imo much better than 52100. For whatever reason, White steel doesn't trip my trigger as much either but at least it feels solid on the stones.

Part of why I find some of the "best steel" conversations interesting is because they often include other related information that is important. Yep, in the end, it's a matter of opinion, but oftentimes well-informed opinion.

I've generally heard pretty good things about the ZKramer 52100 steel and blades (just issues with wood shrinking on the handles).

Fowler, Dalman, and Mert Tansu are a few that come to mind. How about Town Cutler? Love 52100 steel!

My understanding is that Mert learnt his 52100 HT from Bill Burke so you can bet that would be great. I have two knives from him but they are his suminigashi. No idea what core steel they have

malexthekid said:

My understanding is that Mert learnt his 52100 HT from Bill Burke so you can bet that would be great. I have two knives from him but they are his suminigashi. No idea what core steel they have

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If it's like the suminigashi I have from him, then it's the Takefu version of white.

I have a 52100 from him too.
Haven't taken it to the stones yet, hoping to do that this weekend.

I am gonna take a punt and say it is the same, he only works with the one type I think. And that makes sense... not the greatest edge retention but damn does it get sharp.

Speaking of ppl who has trained under Bill Burke, has anyone tried knives made by his daughter Jessica.. I see epicurean edge sometimes has them but am not sure how they are like to use

ynot1985 said:

Speaking of ppl who has trained under Bill Burke, has anyone tried knives made by his daughter Jessica.. I see epicurean edge sometimes has them but am not sure how they are like to use

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I saw her knives at Bladeshow. As you might imagine given who her father is, she knows how to make a good kitchen knife ;-). Some of the best grinds we saw at the show and they were light and balanced. Of course we didn't get to use them though. . .

Moriah Cowles - Orchard Steel . She uses 52100, think on all, definitely the one I have. I have bought and then sold a grip of knives from Non Japanese makers and hers is one of the only I kept. Love that knife, a lot of character, cuts real nice too.

Just got my fish sword from Oatley in 52100. Has some nice layering as he used nickel and iron I believe for the soft steel. Going to put it through the paces on my stones to see if I can get some nice contrast but it came wicked sharp and the grind is amazing on both the front and back side. He uses 52100 often so I anticipate good things.

ynot1985 said:

Speaking of ppl who has trained under Bill Burke, has anyone tried knives made by his daughter Jessica.. I see epicurean edge sometimes has them but am not sure how they are like to use

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I actually have her little 5" slicer, it's wonderfully balanced, cut's like a dream. I would rock a full western chef's knife in her style in a heartbeat.

One of my "if I live long enough" projects is to make some knives, and since my brother has access to a forge, probably let him forge me one out of 52100.

this stuff is really quite common -- the other name for it is "bearing steel" and you have some of it in your car, on all four wheels. Very wear resistant, and very hard and tough.

It's also not easy to forge, it requires yellow heat or it won't move, and it's hard enough it won't work cold at all, so not many people work with it, I think.

I've seen some "test to destruction" videos of knives made from it, and it's VERY tough. Being carbon, it should also take a screaming edge, although I've no idea what kind of edge retention it would have. I'd guess fairly good, but that's a guess.

As always, heat treatment is key to a good knife, and if I make one it will go to a professional (I have a co-worker who makes knives, he now sends all of his out, it's cheaper and he gets excellent results).

If I get really froggy someday I may try a commercially made one.

I would expect it to be difficult to sharpen or thin, though.....

Peter

hambone.johnson said:

Just got my fish sword from Oatley in 52100. Has some nice layering as he used nickel and iron I believe for the soft steel. Going to put it through the paces on my stones to see if I can get some nice contrast but it came wicked sharp and the grind is amazing on both the front and back side. He uses 52100 often so I anticipate good things.

Click to expand...

Pics pleese.