Springy or rigid not bendy: trying to understand what steel or construction to look for when buying

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GeneH

GeneH

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Yep, that was a pretty lame title - but here's the gist: looking for knives for my son's wedding present. I have Tojiro DP and like another clad knife I have it bends easily. But other knives I have are less prone to bend and the steel seems harder overall.

So before I fill out the form to post of which knife to buy, I would like to know more about what to ask or look for in a semi-stainless blade. Do solid (not clad stainless over a hard core) blades tend to be less prone to bending? Or is it totally coincident that my DP and Mora clad blades bend like really soft steel?

Some knives even have a nice ring to them and those seem more rigid and springy.
 
Whenever gifting knives, know that some people have superstitions about gifting knives (or might interpret an unintended meaning into the gesture!), might be a good idea to check beforehand - or gift the knife with a coin packaged with it.

The Masakage coin is there for a reason :)
 
Agreed, knives as gifts could be problematic, and I was not planning this until my son mentioned he was holding off buying better knives because the wedding is coming up. (hint dad...) :) Both boys like knives and appreciate functionality over "looks cool," and talk about my kitchen knives, so we are good to go.
 
I was thinking of the same question. I've sharpened a couple of DP gyuto and a petty. Don't recall them being "bendy" at all.

But for a wedding gift I would probably up the ante to a Uraku, Itinommon or Tanaka (or the like).
 
GeneH said:
Agreed, knives as gifts could be problematic, and I was not planning this until my son mentioned he was holding off buying better knives because the wedding is coming up. (hint dad...) :) Both boys like knives and appreciate functionality over "looks cool," and talk about my kitchen knives, so we are good to go.
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Look at the Suisin Inox Western series at Korin or the Gonbei AUS-10 at JKI:

http://korin.com/Knives/Inox-Western-Style_2

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/aus-10-series
 
foody518 said:
You found the Tojiro DP to be bendy? What length knife do you have?
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I have the 210. Had a slight curve looking down the spine, so I put a little pressure on it an went too far the other way. It's just as easy to straighten out. Other similar knives in my rack haven't bent at all, despite significant abuse. -shudder-
 
I was looking for these Uraku (JKI only?), Itinommon or Tanaka,but didn't really find anything. Can you suggest some place to look for info?

Thanks for the links to the Inox and aus-10 series - those are in the running. I am checking out Jon's video reviews and such, were he does talk about the blade stiffness.

Have to stay with Western style because of the kids decor. Harumph. Wish I knew the kids would love single bevel WA style, but guess I'll have to reserve that for my own personal upgrade one of these days.

daveb said:
I was thinking of the same question. I've sharpened a couple of DP gyuto and a petty. Don't recall them being "bendy" at all.

But for a wedding gift I would probably up the ante to a Uraku, Itinommon or Tanaka (or the like).
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Pensacola Tiger said:
Look at the Suisin Inox Western series at Korin or the Gonbei AUS-10 at JKI:

http://korin.com/Knives/Inox-Western-Style_2

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/aus-10-series
Click to expand...
 
If you are talking about the "memory" of the steel, such that it will spring back from flexing, then I have found stainless steel has more such memory.

For example, I have flexed a Sakai Yusuke enough to put a 30 degree bend in it, and it sprang back dead straight.

Carbon steel and iron, it seems, has less such memory and will just bend.

I don't know the technical explanation for this, so I'm hoping someone with this knowledge will chime in.

Cheers

J
 
Mute-on said:
If you are talking about the "memory" of the steel, such that it will spring back from flexing, then I have found stainless steel has more such memory.J
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Yes, exactly! I don't expect too much in the sub $200 range, though the responses so far have really helped.
 
GeneH said:
I was looking for these Uraku (JKI only?), Itinommon or Tanaka,but didn't really find anything. Can you suggest some place to look for info?
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Uraku is a house brand of JKI. Intinommon is a house brand of JNS. Everybody sells Tanaka but James at Knives and Stones finishes them nicely. I think the Western requirement is new (or I missed it) Uraku and Tanaka are Wa Gyuto, Intinommon is available in either flavor. Given the Western requirement, Jon has the Gesshin Stainless (I prefer to the Torijo), I also like the Suisin Western (Korin) and the Gonbei (JKI) suggested by Rick looks good.
 
Lot's of great suggestions to work with already. I notice Jon doesn't post much about the steel hardness on his site but does give a good explanation of what to expect in his videos.

Would like to get a 240-270 Gyuto, short petty for general utility, and paring, then a inexpensive set of serrated steak knives that would be used on plates. One thing nice about the plain black handles is I can mix different brands (if I have to) and still sorta match.
 
Clad knives are not springy; they are bendy. Easy to bend, easy to straighten. If you are looking for a springy knife like a medieval sword - mono steel blade made of spring steel and not harden to the high hrc is what you are after.
On that note, it will not make the kitchen knife any better and I am not aware of any japanese made like that. Swords or bowie knives have very different function to a gyuto.
 
GeneH said:
Lot's of great suggestions to work with already. I notice Jon doesn't post much about the steel hardness on his site but does give a good explanation of what to expect in his videos.
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He doesn't tend to list them but will pretty readily respond to that if you ask. Doesn't want people to get hung up on a particular spec and base a whole knife off one part of the picture
 
Ruso said:
Clad knives are not springy; they are bendy. Easy to bend, easy to straighten. If you are looking for a springy knife like a medieval sword - mono steel blade made of spring steel and not harden to the high hrc is what you are after.
On that note, it will not make the kitchen knife any better and I am not aware of any japanese made like that.
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There are many monosteel and softer J-knives, just we don't talk about them here as often as what's most popular these days are clad knives and higher HRC steel knives, either PM or semi-stainless or AS/Carbon. Back in the day on Foodieforums, board_d_laze and kcma (RIP) were both proponents of monosteel J-knives and were not fan of clad J-knives - particularly to them it had to do with their perception of the lively feel/feedback of monosteel knives on the board vs what they thought was the dampened/almost dead feel for clad knives. Whether this is really a thing I won't get into here, but I'll repeat a few of their classic recommendations (and ones that were much discussed a decade ago) and add in a couple of my own.

- Mac Pro
- Masamoto VG
- Misono UX10
- Misono 440
- Suisin Western Inox
- Sakai Takayuki Grand Chef
- Togiharu INOX and G-1

I have a few Misono UX10 and 440s, and while I don't really pay that much attention to difference in cutting feedback off the board, FWIW they do seem more springy to me when gently bending them side-to-side vs my clad knives.

Regardless any of these will make nice wedding gift knives.
 
Now I am aware of few, thanks richard. tho Mac is an US brand, no?
Anywho, springiness is not something that kitchen knife nesesary needs or benefits of. I also don't feel a difference on a board kike BdL describes. I might not be so sensetive.
 
Murphy's law says that whatever can't get bent will still get bent somehow, and can't be bent back.
 
Ruso said:
Now I am aware of few, thanks richard. tho Mac is an US brand, no?
Anywho, springiness is not something that kitchen knife nesesary needs or benefits of. I also don't feel a difference on a board kike BdL describes. I might not be so sensetive.
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Mac is a Japanese brand, though it was one of the first to set up distribution in US
 
From the website, nothing hints at japanese ties ... btw, they are quite confident in their self description :)
 
Confusing... just like this statement from the american site: " These knives are made using our Superior steel which has an additional processing step called sub-zero tempering for better edge retention than our Original steel." ...isn't cryo treatment considered a non-optional standard for classic stainless steels these days?
 
LifeByA1000Cuts said:
...isn't cryo treatment considered a non-optional standard for classic stainless steels these days?
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Only a few knife makers do cryo; liquid nitrogen and similar things are expensive to use. Many knife-makers use sub-zero, which is the warmer and cheaper version of cryo. Sticking a knife in the freezer could be considered sub-zero, as would be the use of dry ice.

Sometimes, cyro and sub-zero are not needed and won't change anything. This doesn't stop some makers from adding it in anyway.

When heat-treating steel we need to consider each step that goes into trying to achieve the desired properties It's standard to consider if the option is necessary to transform any retained austenite into martensite, and whether the cost of the added step is worth the improvement.
 
Ah OK, i thought I remembered reading that western stainless (all the 440ish/1.4116-ish stuff that is so common) really sucked HARD until everyone understood that this stuff needs some kind of freezing, and made it a part of the standard practice of working with it.
 
Last night I ordered a Gonbei gyuto from JKI. After talking with Jon, this sounds like it will work well enough on nylon cutting boards yet take a good edge. The edge will probably be longer lasting than my Tojiro (sp?) DP, which still chips a bit. I should different boards, but the tiny tiny chips don't hurt anything.
 
The Gonbei Gyuto got hear really fast, but Jon wrapped it so neatly in fine black paper that I can't check it out before giving it to my son. Dang! I am not going to mess up the wrapping - total class.
 
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